Wednesday, August 6, 2008

Homeschooling IS a Control Issue


For some reason this topic is on my mind. Education is a big topic and not so big of a topic in the upcoming election. Both candidates I feel are pretty solid in this area, so pardon the post as it will not be ripping on Obama. I will miss ripping on him. However, this is a topic of which I am not an authority on, but have an opinion anyway. Call it an educated one, call it an uninformed one, but an opinion nonetheless. I do understand a parent embracing the homeschooling philosophy for several reasons. Control of curriculum and topics, friends, diet, convenience and school shootings to name only a few. However, in my mind the decision to home school is made by control freak parents. I hate to generalize, OK no I don't, I like it and let me do some more of it. Let me just preface it by saying that I know kids who were home schooled and are among the best and the brightest kids in school, so this is not the issue I have with it. The issue is the controlling aspect of what children are taught and the arrogant nature in which a parent deems their curriculum better or of a higher standard. While public schools are struggling, for the most part I think education today is better than it has ever been. Yet, we continue to complain about American competitiveness on a global scale. Breeding little compete-mongering children is not a good formula for society. It creates a mean kid atmosphere and quite frankly kids should spend more time in the "being nice" classroom and less time in the academic classroom. But that is just me. At any rate, home schooled children are taught a strict philosophical view that is controlled by the parent. Also, home schooling parents act superior to the public school system, and I think a community should support its local schools. I don't think that the social aspect is too much of a problem, but I do think I would feel isolated as a kid from the camaraderie of school spirit and school pride. Its a huge part of childhood that home school kids miss out on. Nothing better than a pep rally before a sporting event. So what is the purpose of home schooling? Is it so parents can micromanage what goes into the impressionable minds of their kids? If so that philosophy stinks. What is it they think about the outside world? Are they better? Is the world so evil that the education that comes from a secular institution is sub-par? This is a self-righteous attitude of educational superiority that in my opinion is detrimental to our society. Kicking out little programed kids is not healthy for the promotion of an expanded thought processes. It would be easy for me to have my son stay home so I could control, who his friends are, what he learns, what he eats and feel warm inside because he is protected from a dangerous world. I take issue with this aspect of homeschooling. However this is America. Do what you want. At this point I may be wrong, but it just seems that control over a child's every move and every thought isn't so healthy.

278 comments:

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Nikki said...

yea I don't think so always on watch this is my blog, I can delete whoever I want if it were public that would not be the case. So I am sure the trolls that hijack your blog are welcomed with open arms. not here.

Nikki said...

papa frank, I am sorry as well. I have been quite disheartened by the commentors that have come from other blogs. It has been an on going rip fest for many sent by a few other bloggers and to me it is tiring. I appreciate your clarifying and I hope that you feel welcome here. I realy mean that. :)N

Nikki said...

jungle mom and nanc...if you hate my blog please don't read it. Its that simple. no apologies from me to you as it is you two who are badgering me.

Beamish said...

The internet is making homeschooling easier and easier.

Here's something you never learned in public school:

Education played a very important part in Nazi Germany in trying to cultivate a loyal following for Hitler and the Nazis. The Nazis were aware that education would create loyal Nazis by the time they reached adulthood. The Hitler Youth had been created for post-school activities and schools were to play a critical part in developing a loyal following for Hitler - indoctrination and the use of propaganda were to be a common practice in Nazi schools and the education system.

Enforcing a Nazi curriculum on schools depended on the teachers delivering it. All teachers had to be vetted by local Nazi officials. Any teacher considered disloyal was sacked. Many attended classes during school holidays in which the Nazi curriculum was spelled out and 97% of all teachers joined the Nazi Teachers' Association. All teachers had to be careful about what they said as children were encouraged to inform the authorities if a teacher said something that did not fit in with the Nazi's curriculum for schools.

Subjects underwent a major change in schools. Some of the most affected were History and Biology.

History was based on the glory of Germany - a nationalistic approach was compulsory. The German defeat in 1918 was explained as the work of Jewish and Marxist spies who had weakened the system from within; the Treaty of Versailles was the work of nations jealous of Germany's might and power; the hyperinflation of 1923 was the work of Jewish saboteurs; the national resurgence which started under the leadership of Hitler etc.

Biology became a study of the different races to 'prove' that the Nazi belief in racial superiority was a sound belief. "Racial Instruction" started as the age of 6. Hitler himself had decreed that "no boy or girl should leave school without complete knowledge of the necessity and meaning of blood purity." Pupils were taught about the problems of heredity. Older pupils were taught about the importance of selecting the right "mate" when marrying and producing children. The problems of inter-racial marriage were taught with an explanation that such marriages could only lead to a decline in racial purity.

Geography taught pupils about the land Germany had taken away from her in 1919 and the need for Germany to have living space - lebensraum.

Science had a military-slant to it. The curriculum required that the principles of shooting be studied; military aviation science; bridge building and the impact of poisonous gasses.

Girls had a different curriculum in some regards as they studied domestic science and eugenics - both of which were to prepare young girls to be the prefect mother and wife. In Eugenics, girls were taught about the characteristics to look out for in a perfect husband and father.

Indoctrination became rampant in all subjects. At every opportunity, teachers were expected to attack the life style of the Jews. Exam questions even contained blunt reference to the government's anti-Semitic stance:

"A bomber aircraft on take-off carries 12 dozen bombs, each weighing 10 kilos. The aircraft takes off for Warsaw the international centre for Jewry. It bombs the town. On take-off with all bombs on board and a fuel tank containing 100 kilos of fuel, the aircraft weighed about 8 tons. When it returns from the crusade, there are still 230 kilos left. What is the weight of the aircraft when empty ?"

Other questions would also include areas the government wanted taught by teachers in the nation's search for a master race:

"To keep a mentally ill person costs approximately 4 marks a day. There are 300,000 mentally ill people in care. How much do these people cost to keep in total? How many marriage loans of 1000 marks could be granted with this money?"

PE became a very important part of the curriculum. Hitler had stated that he wanted boys who could suffer pain.........."a young German must be as swift as a greyhound, as tough as leather, and as hard as Krupp's steel." PE took up 15% of a school's weekly timetable. Boxing became compulsory for boys. Those who failed fitness tests could be expelled from their schools - and face humiliation from those who had passed such tests.

In 1937, pupils were give the choice of studying Religious Instructions or not.

For boys considered special, different school were created. Those who were physically fitter and stronger than the rest went to Adolf Hitler Schools where they were taught to be the future leaders of Germany. Six years of tough physical training took place and when the pupils from these schools left aged 18, they went to the army or to university. The very best pupils went to Order Castles. These were schools which took pupils to the limits of physical endurance. War games used live ammunition and pupils were killed at these schools. Those who graduated from the Order Castles could expect to attain a high position in the army or the SS.

From 1935 on, after the Nuremburg Laws, Jewish school children were not allowed to attend schools. The Nazi government claimed that a German pupil sitting next to a Jew could become contaminated by the experience.

The sole purpose of this educational structure was to create a future generation that was blindly loyal to Hitler and the Nazis.

DB said...

This keeps getting better...

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

Congrats Beamish, you proved Godwin's Law once again!

Beamish said...

DB,

You should read back further.

It was Nikki, our host, who made the ahistorical reference in calling homeschooling advocates "Nazis."

It is not my fault at all that actual Nazi indoctrination programs took place in a public education setting.

DB said...

Yes, she made a minor reference to you guys being Nazis. You took it to the extreme. I hope you normally don't justify "bad" behavior with other "bad" behavior. Congratulations.

Elmers Brother said...

simply put the comments would have ended if you hadn't put the juvenile and oh so jr high tag on the top of your blog

"why homeschoolers SUCK so bad!"

This sounds like a reasonable person?

DB,

I think you would find my opinion on creation/evolution quite reasonable.

Nikki said...

um at that point there were already more than 65 comments from you and 4 differing blogs had a mass email generating dissenters...yep that's so not Jr. High.

Jungle Mom said...

ok, this will be my last.
I suppose I should apologize for taking offense at being referred to as a Nazi. Did it ever occur to you that,perhaps, someone in my family, say like a grand father, was killed by the real Nazi's?
How silly of me to not take such a harsh word lightly.
oh HAHAHA my bad!

Papa Frank said...

JM -- that was my point as well. Yet there has still never been an apology for likening caring American parents to nazis. How about it nikki? Are homeschoolers nazis or are they not?

Elmers Brother said...

um at that point there were already more than 65 comments from you and 4 differing blogs had a mass email generating dissenters...yep that's so not Jr. High.

I didn't make my post till you put the juvenile tag at the top. I don't CONTROL other bloggers either.

Nikki said...

sigh

Nikki said...

feel free to NOT read my blog. Seriously folks this isn't mandatory reading like in public schools...feel free to remove yourselves and home blog. :)N

DB said...

I think you would find my opinion on creation/evolution quite reasonable.

I would listen to it of course, but I doubt I would find it reasonable at all.

Elmers Brother said...

well come on over

Papa Frank said...

nazi? or not nazi?

Nikki said...

There was a Seinfeld episode called the "soup nazi" did you write into NBC and harass them too? Not all soup cooks are nazi's, Jerry should apologize!...its slang a term to show rigidity and intimidation in this modern day and age. And yes it describes this thread of 200+ comments of a subject that won't die.

Nikki said...

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

McQ said...

220

DB said...

221...I will pwn you McQ.

Papa Frank said...

Just so you are aware of the difference between television and real life let's go over this again. Seinfeld was a TV show with fictional characters and the soup nazi was a "character" in an episode. The people who you have espoused to be nazis here are real life mothers and fathers who work hard, don't suck from the government tit, love their children, and dedicate many hours a day to personally teaching their children one on one. Quite a difference. When you attack TV characters nothing happens. When you attack REAL people with REAL friends you have crossed over to the REAL world. The REAL world holds REAL consequences.

DB said...

What are those "real" consequences you speak of? You yell at someone on a blog? Brilliant!

Aren't republicans the ones who say that no one has the right NOT to be offended? Man, you clowns all sound like a bunch of liberals! :p

Nikki said...

did I just read the phrase "sucking from the government tit" I am speechless. WTF? dude you've got issues.

Papa Frank said...

You call hard working families nazis and can't separate their lives from television and I'm the one with issues? As you are too stupid to figure it out people are just waiting for you to separate these families from nazis. Do you believe that these families are nazis?

Nikki said...

dude what do you want??

DB said...

I am pretty sure you are a nazi. True or not, who knows. In fact, I have no evidence of this claim, but I will make it anyways just to watch you react.

Anyways, are you bored or something because I would love to have a discussion with you about bloggers who hurt my little ol' feelings with mean comments. Perhaps you can relate?

Papa Frank said...

I just want for you to admit that these families are indeed not nazis and that it was unfair for you to make that comparison.

DB said...

Don't admit it Nikki! This is a trojan horse argument. Once you admit he is not a nazi, he will have you fooled! This is how the anti-christ is expected to fool everyone, don't fall for it!

Normally my comment would have no place in an adult conversation, but I find this conversation has ceased being an adult conversation a long time ago.

Nikki said...

Are you trying to bully me and intimidate me into saying something I don't want to? Is that called being "controlling" I believe my point is made once again. I believe I have tapped into something here. The home school crowd has indeed proved itself to be control freaks as they have tried to control what I say do and think...they have NOT been arrogant as they continue to call me stupid. I think this is the evidence you all have been asking for. Please if there is any question as to the validity of my argument please refer to the 230 comments. outstanding.

Nikki said...

that previous comment was for papa frank

Nikki said...

DB, its getting wierd. or is the e before the i? I have no idea I was educated in the public school system and and too stupid.

Papa Frank said...

And yet you have not even listened that I am not the home school crowd. I was educated in public school, my wife was educated in public school, our girls are going to public school, my wife teaches in public school, and I work for a public school. The only real truth here is that you like the attention as YOU are the arrogant control freak and by belittling these families you somehow feel that you have raised yourself up.. Please tell us one more time how many comments there are and count how many are from each contributor.........again.

Beamish said...

DB,

Yes, she made a minor reference to you guys being Nazis. You took it to the extreme. I hope you normally don't justify "bad" behavior with other "bad" behavior. Congratulations.

Dude, seriously. That's ass backwards.

Perhaps Nikki actually believes the Nazis "controlled" people by responding to their inane babbling with rational dissent and presenting a superior case for their point of view, but in the real world, the Nazis controlled people through much more brutal means than revealing them as talentless hacks.

Don't you agree that the term "Nazi" should only be used accurately?

DB said...

Is this a good place to interject a comment about how crappy public schools are?

Nikki said...

oh my freaking hell. its like they are multiplying and mass producing. The scariest part is that they mate and breed, and then home school.

Beamish said...

oh my freaking hell. its like they are multiplying and mass producing. The scariest part is that they mate and breed, and then home school.

"Girls had a different curriculum in some regards as they studied domestic science and eugenics - both of which were to prepare young girls to be the prefect mother and wife. In Eugenics, girls were taught about the characteristics to look out for in a perfect husband and father."

You forget to say "heil!" Nikki.

Nikki said...

please stop being like I say you are.

Nikki said...

sorry I forgot...homeschoolers are controlling and arrogant. this is what you do to "prove" your points. carry on.

DB said...

Beamish, I don't agree with what you are saying for one simple reason...it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that Nikki thinks you are a nazi or not, irregardless of how inaccurately it is claimed. If you don't like her opinion, get over it. Stop reading her blog. Stop being the victim. You do not have a right NOT to be offended. Take a little personal responsibility for your feelings and move on. This is her blog to say whatever the hell she wants. She can claim that homeschoolers are all closet homos if she wants, true or not, and you can either accept her opinion or not. But getting her to change it or apologize is rather irrational. So move on with your life. Do I sound conservative enough for you guys???

DB said...

Yay, comment 241!! Prime Number baby! I feel that this is as vital to this pointless conversation as anything else that can be said.

I don't apologize to any of you haters of prime numbers for my discrimination. Life isn't fair, deal with it.

Beamish said...

Nikki,

sorry I forgot...homeschoolers are controlling and arrogant. this is what you do to "prove" your points. carry on.

I don't homeschool. I don't even have kids.

If insisting that Nazi references be only used in their proper context (are there really any homeschoolers for Aryan purity and extermination of Jews, etc. here?) is "arrogant," I'm going to have to begin to believe your grasp of vocabulary is more limited than your grasp of German political history.

As for not being "like you say we are," that's fairly easy to do, consdering the readily demonstrated fact that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And know it.

Beamish said...

DB,

Who's offended? Can't I express my disdain at imbecility without tards like you getting a persecution complex? Go champion moron rights somewhere else.

This here is Nikki's freedom forum, yo.

DB said...

I may be a tard, but it is clearly not me with the persecution complex as I am not crying about being called a nazi...that would be you and people like you bitching about being called names. Or this a case of the classic hero disorder where you have to constantly defend political correctness and liberal pussyness. Oh, wait, this is where you claim you are conservative...maybe in name, but clearly not in actions.

Papa Frank said...

Nazism refers to the totalitarian Fascist ideology and policies espoused and practiced by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker's Party from 1920-1945. Nazism stressed the superiority of the Aryan, its destiny as the Master Race to rule the world over other races, and a violent hatred of Jews, which it blamed for all of the problems of Germany. Nazism also provided for extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples into a single empire.

Here's a little vocabulary so we'll all be on the same page:

Communism - A social, political, and economic system characterized by the revolutionary struggle to create a society which has an absence of classes, and the common ownership of the means of production and subsistence and centralized governmental control over the economy.
Dictator - A ruler having absolute authority and supreme jurisdiction over the government of a state; especially one who is considered tyrannical or oppressive.

Elitism - Philosophy that a narrow clique of the "best" or "most skilled" members of a given social group should have the power.

Fascism - A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.

Hierarchy - A body of persons organized or classified according to rank, capacity, or authority.

Ideology - The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.

Left-wing - As used in this chapter, individuals and groups who desire to reform or overthrow the established order and advocate change in the name of greater freedom or well-being of the common man.

Nazism - The ideology and policies of Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker's Party from 1921 to 1945.

Propaganda - The systematic spreading of a given doctrine or of allegations reflecting its views and interests.

Right-wing - As used in this chapter, individuals or groups who profess opposition to change in the established order and who favor traditional attitudes and practices, and who sometimes advocate the forced establishment of an authoritarian political order.

Totalitarianism - A form of government in which all societal resources are monopolized by the state in an effort to penetrate and control all aspects of public and private life, through the state's use of propaganda, terror, and technology.

Papa Frank said...

You see Mr. B because we disagree we must be offended. Just like we are liberal if were offended.

Anonymous said...

its not surprising that beamish elmers bro and papa frank are all grumpy old men who probably demand stuff from their wives and beat the hell out of them after. male chauvinist pigs demanding apologies. priceless. conservatives pushing around women is nothing new.

Papa Frank said...

It's not surprising that the weak minded and chicken sh*t hide behind the word "anonymous" and accuse with no basis of facts.

nanc said...

grumpy OLD men?

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!

Papa Frank said...

I get to be Jack Lemon!

nanc said...

wellden, i'll play sophia if you insist!

Elmers Brother said...

Walter Matthau it is.

Yeah sure that's why my wife has stuck around for 23 years.

oy vay

Papa Frank said...

nanc -- Are you also a male chauvinist pig? Or do you feel pushed around?

Beamish said...

DB,

I may be a tard, but it is clearly not me with the persecution complex as I am not crying about being called a nazi...

I'm not crying. I'm not a homeschooler, thus was never called a "Nazi" by our host, Nikki.

But correcting the record on the appropriate place to put a "Nazi" label sure seems to have you shrieking.

Nazi political indoctrination REQUIRED a state-controlled public education apparatus. This is indisputable historical fact.

Nikki calling people "Nazis" because they popped her hot air balloon of an argument is nothing more than sour grapes.

Beamish said...

Papa Frank,

I disagree with some of your definitions.

The proper division between left-wing and right-wing is the collective (left) vs. the individual (right). Welfare vs. merit. Charity vs. achievement.

Divided thusly, you put the Fascists and the Nazis back to their ideological roots on the left side of the political spectrum. In this sense "far right" would be more Ayn Rand-ish devotion to laissez faire capitalism and the shrinkage of the state into a necessary nuisance instead of the arbitrary distributor of inefficiency.

But, we're getting off the topic of how ass-backwards wrong Nikki's argument is.

Beamish said...

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)


Right-wing?

Not.

Ducky's here said...

Not to get off topic, Beamish but if Hitler was such a rabid socialist then why were his first concentration camps built for the containment and elimination of socialists and communists.

Just curious.

You are amusing, if nothing else, and you come perilously close to nothing else.

Ducky's here said...

Papa Frank -- Shut up, you Trotskyite !!

Beamish said...

Not to get off topic, Beamish but if Hitler was such a rabid socialist then why were his first concentration camps built for the containment and elimination of socialists and communists.

Just curious.


Leftists are well known for both their violent tendencies, and their violent ideological puritanism.

Hitler took his Proudhon and Marx too seriously. "World without Jews" and all that.

Beamish said...

Papa Frank,

Are all of your economic and political dogmas rooted in the widely discredited "labor theory of value" (i.e. "the guy that built your computer owns your computer and kindly lets you use it")?

No?

You're no Trotskyite.

Papa Frank said...

I found it particularly funny coming from the duckling. However, his lack of proper thinking will make him right at home here. Welcome ducky!

Papa Frank said...

By the way Mr. B -- those definitions were cut and paste from a college course. Amazing that higher education would teach nazis as being far right instead of far left. Of course your definitions are far superior to these.

Papa Frank said...

I do find it interesting though to note that neither the definitions I had OR your definitions included the idea that homeschoolers would be nazis of any sort. That would only be the opinion of the weakest minded of people as it would be an incredible deviation from truth and in every way a form of fantasy.

Beamish said...

Papa Frank,

By the way Mr. B -- those definitions were cut and paste from a college course. Amazing that higher education would teach nazis as being far right instead of far left. Of course your definitions are far superior to these.

It was Stalin that first called the Fascists "right-wing socialists."

Even to this day the various camps of the left do the "I'm more far leftist than you" song and dance against each other. The crazier left you go, the more the remaining leftists are "right-wing."

That's all that is. Have the teacher with that textbook demonstrate how the Nazis were right-wing. The shallowness of the answer will amuse you.

Rachel said...

Nikki, I love your post. I've been thinking along the same lines but just wasn't sure who else thinks like this! I'm sure at the end of the day the decision to homeschool is definitely one of control. Even if its for the most benevolent of reasons (i.e. to control the types of people your child has to see so that your child never gets harassed/bullied by certain nasty individuals again) its still a control issue. When homeschoolers take offence at the use of the word "control" in all this debate, I wonder if they're just not being completely honest with themselves. Nobody's calling you a control freak unless you show yourself up to be one. Those who do obviously have a chip on their shoulder about this. Fair enough, home-edders do sometimes get some stick from people in daily life about their decision to homeschool. I'm sure they are sick of dealing with all the negative accusations, which some of them may not be guilty of. And I don't automatically assume every homeschooling parent is a control freak. Only some. And they give the reputation of homeschoolers a truly bad name.

I don't like it when some homeschooling parents seem to engage OVERLY in criticising the school system. A lot of people, successful people, actually came out of school and enjoyed their time there. Yet you find the attitude of some homeschoolers towards people like that is more of the "they're only successful DESPITE being educated in school, not Because of it". Talk about being narrow-minded and looking at the world through some kind of myopic lenses.

Rachel said...

By the way I do know a few homeschoolers in my area and I like them. They are really nice and understanding people and they certainly do not criticise the school system. They just felt it wasn't right for their children, because their kids are diagnosed disabled, or ADHD, or autistic, or even badly bullied before at school.

Only that so far I've met one homeschooling parent who I really feel should not be homeschooling. I have doubts about whether the reasons for her choosing that route are right. She is anti-anything that is modern-day. Hates youth culture, hates computer-generated graphics for children's TV, computer games (yet her hubby loves it!) etc. And she's only 26! She knits her own clothes, cooks her own food and balks at restaurants and takeaways, only wants to buy organic though she and her hubby aren't able to earn enough money to sustain an organic-food lifestyle. I bet if she had the opportunity to own a piece of farmland she'd grow her food as well.

She's seriously got more than just a chip on her shoulder. She's constantly bitching about her family and everything. Very very disgruntled. Then she keeps telling people that she thinks her daughter has some psychological disorder. She claims its Sensory Integration Dysfunction after reading some book about it, and when asked by her friend why she'd think that, the example she picked was that one day, her daughter cringed and screamed and ran away from a plate of french fries that she served on the dinner table. I mean... HUH?? How is that not considered within the normal scope of child behaviour at that age?! If that's used as an example for some psychological disorder, then I guess all our kids are psychologically "disturbed" in some way right?

She bitches about everybody, especially her parents and her husband (who by the way is out working to support the family, whereas she is just sitting at home all day typing FB statuses such as "Being a Stay-At-Home Mum is the best thing in the world". Then recently she's saying that she's probably going to homeschool her daughter because she feels that with her daughter being so "difficult", school would not be the learning solution for her. She also goes on about how "angelic" her younger 2 year old daughter is whilst the 4 year old (whom she's planning to homeschool) is "difficult".

I can't help feeling a bit sorry for that older daughter of hers. First of all, for her mother to put a label on her so young as being plagued with some kind of issue (in this case, a psychological one) and then now her mother is denying her a school education on the basis of that label, amongst other things. Besides, that label isn't even formally declared by a certified psychologist or psychiatrist. She couldn't afford the fees to pay for one to have a look at her daughter you see. But why go around telling people that her daughter has SAD or SID then?? I think that's really quite insensitive to the feelings of the child. Plus the poor child will have her entire world micromanaged by her control freak mum, who is SUCH a barrel of joy, she is.

This is one homeschooler I don't think should even be allowed to homeschool.

Marmee said...

Maybe you should pick up a book about the history of your very own church and find out how the prophets felt about a secular education. If the Saints had been obedient in the early years, your child might well have been attending an LDS private school today.

Nikki said...

Marmee, maybe you should learn about the war in heaven and which side wanted to force us into obedience and which side wanted agency. If you want to go to early days of the church we can do that...perhaps your husband has more than one wife? Don't drop the "Mormon" argument on me and try to guilt me into your interpretation of "early" doctrine. It's a ridiculous argument. Tune in.

shirley elizabeth said...

I don't have any kids yet, and having come from a house where we were taught as much in the home as we were at public school (our home responsibilities/chores came before homework) I feel like I've had a good opportunity to look at these comments objectively.
What it all sounded like to me was Elmer guy very clearly explaining things from his point of view with Nikki and others fighting back or cracking jokes at him/sniveling on the side.

Here's where I stand on the issue: the kids' lives and future depends on a high amount of influence in the home and from parents. I can bet you that any socially outgoing, high achieving student didn't get it from school, but learned it in the home. And the same goes for the introverted and the lazy.

Also, there were a couple of comments questioning the curriculum of home schooled children. Why should anyone have any right to tell one person what she has to or cannot teach her child? That is way too far for any one or government to go.

shirley elizabeth said...

Wow. Marmee's comment astounds me.

Marmee said...

Nikki, Your presumption that people home-school to control their kids is a quite a leap. That would be like me saying that all public school parents send their children away for 7 hours a day because it is free daycare. (You call us controlling, we would call you lazy?) I have known a few of both types of parents, but it would be presumptuous of me to assume that all parents fit one or the other category.

I can only speak for my family, and "control" has absolutely nothing at all to do with it. In fact, after 14 years of homeschooling and participating in homeschool groups in 4 states and two countries, I can honestly tell you that I have only met one family who meets your description.

In fact, I would probably argue that you have it completely backwards. The Gospel teaches freedom through keeping commandments and following God's law. From what I can see, the public schools are teaching that freedom means "doing what you want as long as it doesn't bother anyone else" and that is bondage. Look it up!

Yes, I have read about the war in heaven, and just because I chose not to send my children out to be taught by others, does not mean that I do not believe in or understand free agency. My children are free to choose their friends, choose what activities they participate in and also help choose their curriculum. (Unlike public school children who are force fed what ever the local administration feels is necessary!) They are also free to choose back to school, though I would probably choose a private school over public.

We do not stay home all day, nor do we hang out with only other homeschoolers or Mormons. My children are average kids, who get to talk about God during history and science, who get to travel the world during the "off" season, and who tell me daily that they wouldn't change their life for any thing!

Read Boyd K Packer's words,

"In many places it is literally not safe physically for youngsters to go to school. And in many schools – and it’s becoming almost generally true – it is spiritually unsafe to attend public schools. Look back over the history of education to the turn of the century and the beginning of the educational philosophies…which have led us now into a circumstance where our schools are producing the problems that we face." (BYU, October 9, 1996.)

"The ultimate purpose of the adversary, who has “great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time,” is to disrupt, disturb, and destroy the home and the family. Like a ship without a rudder, without a compass, we drift from the family values which have anchored us in the past. Now we are caught in a current so strong that unless we correct our course, civilization as we know it will surely be wrecked to pieces. Moral values are being neglected and prayer expelled from public schools on the pretext that moral teaching belongs to religion. At the same time, atheism, the secular religion, is admitted to class, and our youngsters are proselyted to a conduct without morality." (Ensign, May 1994 P. 19)

The Vineyard said...

Home schooled kids are ready for academia. But I think when you remove the garbage, hard knocks, competition, flat out falsehoods taught, then how do you prepare your child to think for themselves outside of the protective bubble of mom? All those things are the reason many moms home school but it is those challenges that help mold a child into an individual with the capacity to take a stand in the face of opposition, not just hypothetically.

DB said...

Oh my, the persecution complex and the self-righteousness is still strong 18 months after the original post. I wish I could say I was shocked. Nothing changes. Get over yourselves.

rainbows said...

I think the homeschool parents here sound so self absorbed, as much as this is about the kid's education, it still sounds like its all about them.
I am homeschooled, in my senior year now. Almost free! And I hate being home educated. I agree that its a control issue the parents have. Think of the person and strange personality type you'd have to be, to be the kind of person who home educates their child. I think homeschool parents are some of the most controlling and closed-minded people I know. And many homeschool parents went to public school as children and youth themselves. I wonder if they were the lame kids, if they were bullied, if they never fit in. I wonder why they are soo extremely religious, well just controlling really, Since not every home educater may be doing it for religious reasons.
I think people should ask homeschool kids themselves how they feel. Although, even then, I imagine it would be pretty 50/50 with the kids who hated it and loved it. To each their own.
I think that what is most important, wether a parent wants to homeschool or not, is if the child wants to. I don't care about how you(the parent) feels, its not all about you. My parents philosophy has really drawn me farther from them. As much as they try to keep me closer to them by homeschooling me. I think its doing the opposite, and perhaps that's what they deserve, trying to force me, in a way, to be a certain person.
And I agree, there is some self righteousness to homeschoolers. I do think they are prideful. My mother thinks public school is unnatural and that children should all be homeschooled. Its wrong. There are so many things I have never experienced. A date, prom, homecoming, not always having a parent escort me here and there, driving myself places, a regular job. The list goes on, and not all homeschoolers are like my parents. There are homeschoolers I envy, they have so much freedom..well, they are normal.
What are the odds of ending up with the insane homeschool parents. Can't choose our parents. *sighs*

Michelle Hill said...

Nikki,
I agree with you wholeheartedly! Being a former homeschool child now in college no thanks to my parents, I do think that homeschool parents are controlling and think they are better than everyone else. My mom thinks she can teach my younger siblings better than a school, yet they are years behind in school work and I can't see my brother making it into college.

I've also seen too many families that have children that are being over controlled.

I also wrote a blog post about controlling parents: http://notesfromahomeschooler.blogspot.com/

Elizabeth said...

Thumps up!!! Nicely written.

Elizabeth said...

Great response!

Elizabeth said...

Thumps up!!! Nicely written.

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