Wednesday, August 6, 2008

Homeschooling IS a Control Issue


For some reason this topic is on my mind. Education is a big topic and not so big of a topic in the upcoming election. Both candidates I feel are pretty solid in this area, so pardon the post as it will not be ripping on Obama. I will miss ripping on him. However, this is a topic of which I am not an authority on, but have an opinion anyway. Call it an educated one, call it an uninformed one, but an opinion nonetheless. I do understand a parent embracing the homeschooling philosophy for several reasons. Control of curriculum and topics, friends, diet, convenience and school shootings to name only a few. However, in my mind the decision to home school is made by control freak parents. I hate to generalize, OK no I don't, I like it and let me do some more of it. Let me just preface it by saying that I know kids who were home schooled and are among the best and the brightest kids in school, so this is not the issue I have with it. The issue is the controlling aspect of what children are taught and the arrogant nature in which a parent deems their curriculum better or of a higher standard. While public schools are struggling, for the most part I think education today is better than it has ever been. Yet, we continue to complain about American competitiveness on a global scale. Breeding little compete-mongering children is not a good formula for society. It creates a mean kid atmosphere and quite frankly kids should spend more time in the "being nice" classroom and less time in the academic classroom. But that is just me. At any rate, home schooled children are taught a strict philosophical view that is controlled by the parent. Also, home schooling parents act superior to the public school system, and I think a community should support its local schools. I don't think that the social aspect is too much of a problem, but I do think I would feel isolated as a kid from the camaraderie of school spirit and school pride. Its a huge part of childhood that home school kids miss out on. Nothing better than a pep rally before a sporting event. So what is the purpose of home schooling? Is it so parents can micromanage what goes into the impressionable minds of their kids? If so that philosophy stinks. What is it they think about the outside world? Are they better? Is the world so evil that the education that comes from a secular institution is sub-par? This is a self-righteous attitude of educational superiority that in my opinion is detrimental to our society. Kicking out little programed kids is not healthy for the promotion of an expanded thought processes. It would be easy for me to have my son stay home so I could control, who his friends are, what he learns, what he eats and feel warm inside because he is protected from a dangerous world. I take issue with this aspect of homeschooling. However this is America. Do what you want. At this point I may be wrong, but it just seems that control over a child's every move and every thought isn't so healthy.

278 comments:

1 – 200 of 278   Newer›   Newest»
ba and the boys said...

seriously, the biggest reason not to home school comes down to this...
i love my kid(s), but i need them to leave the house once in awhile and let me nap/eat/watch the today show/blog without them.

heidianne jackson said...

you said "While public schools are struggling, for the most part I think education today is better than it has ever been."

really? our students don't know basic math. history is not consistently offered at the public school level - only on an "as we have time" basis in most states. our children are TAUGHT that they don't need to know how to spell, that grammar is unimportant and we all have the same talents and things to offer.

in many states it is ILLEGAL to fail a child. the child can get every single question wrong on a test and you cannot fail them. can't hurt their self-esteem you know.

you also said: "It creates a mean kid atmosphere and quite frankly kids should spend more time in the "being nice" classroom and less time in the academic classroom."

nikki, this is just pure unabashed liberal speak. without competition there are few, if any, advances - be they advances of civilization or academia. without bullies, the nice kid never learns how to overcome adversity.

the question is not why are there bullies, but why isn't everyone a bully? competition creates excellence.

too many other things in this post to touch on all of them. but i was a homeschool parent. i don't think myself better than the general populace, but i do think my kids are better prepared for life than those in the general populace.

my kids were homeschooled from first grade through 8th grade. they all went (or are going) to public high school. there is no comparison between what my kids know and what those in high school with them know.

they have an historical perspective that far surpasses that of the average high school teacher - and it's not just me saying so, it's also their teachers. they have (and do) stand up to their teachers when they espouse that republicans are bad for this country. they know and understand the constitution and spelling and grammar.

people remark that my daughter got a sholarship to college about how lucky we were. my youngest is now in a dual enrollment program between university and high school (11th grade) - nearly 3000 kids applied and she was one of 200 accepted. when she graduates high school she will enter college full time as a junior. again we're told how lucky she is.

we weren't/aren't lucky, we prepared our daughters. we taught them the basics that are no longer taught in the public schools across the country.

teachers don't even have to get a passing grade on the teaching credentials test in order to get a teaching certificate in most states. and that will be the norm in all states if the nea gets its way.

my children are not little programmed kids, but they are knowledgeable. they have been taught logic and history and spelling and grammar and science and math. they think for themselves and question everything. they were taught to "trust but verify".

in the public school system they were taught that republicans are evil. they were taught that the market is evil. they were taught that the united states is imperialistic and mean. they were taught that the constitution is living. sheesh. and that's GOOD for our country?

oh, and one more thing. i did control what they heard and saw. they were REQUIRED to watch the news and read at least three disparaging news sources each day and contrast and report. and i wasn't any different from other families who homeschooled that i know.

all in all, i have to believe that my kids are much more well rounded than are most who are their contemporaries - and many who are contemporaries of mine.

defiant_infidel said...

Wow, Nikki... I am truly floored. I have come to like and respect your observations and opinion, but I doubt I could be much further departed from your views here.

Heidianne conveyed my thoughts and views well, but there are still other aspects that perhaps I can instead touch upon.

You suggest that it is "freakish" somehow for parents to be concerned and caring enough to participate in good control of their exposure to the liberal onslaught of "ideas" that you otherwise have so frequently spoken out about? When did good, caring participation as a parent become "freak" behavior?

I recently observed a sophomore girl in a local public school publicly rip her cell phone back out of the hand of the Principal, in the hallway, in front of three other teachers while literally screaming at him that she would "sue the a** off of him if he moved to touch her or her phone in any further manner". She then told him to "shut the f*** up and leave her alone".

He had admonished her for continuing her chatty call with another student... a full 6 minutes after class had begun. He withered and slinked away to his office without further response. The other teachers watching looked at me, red faced, and bid their own hasty retreat, passing two other tardy student females engaged in a full on, open mouth to mouth slobber fest... without a sound. I followed one of the teachers and asked how any of what I just witnessed was allowed to occur. She simply shrugged her shoulders and said there was nothing they could do anymore and still retain their jobs. "Things have changed". She then went into the teacher's lounge and closed the door in my utterly bewildered face.

I spoke to the parents of a young girl also enrolled in that school about what I had seen (they rented from me at that time). They both just nodded their heads and then said that was the way things are in public school systems now.

"Nothing anyone can do".

I find that beyond horrendous. But to read your sweeping contempt for the few parents that will sacrifice their time to make the tremendous effort to educate themselves, so that they can in turn do the best in their power to educate their children... I am nearly speechless. Nearly...

I have a friend who is now home schooling their third child. They take great pains to give them thorough exposure/involvement to public school system sports activities... they attend all pep rallies for their local school. this is not the exception with home schooled children, more the rule.

Home schooling parents also of course still pay the full burden of taxes to support public education. They should not have the option to exert so much more effort, directly and personally, to educate their own children at home? I don't follow your thinking here at all.

Test scores and academic achievement comparisons of home schooled children are consistently, significantly higher than publicly educated children. Does that not speak volumes alone for the results? Why criticize loving parents for their extraordinary involvement in truly being a parent?

Competition is a bad thing? That is the same mantra that has spawned this society of whiners and "I'm special" socialists. Wow.

Is there no reason for the need to control a child to a great extent through their developmental stages? I guess we should just let them "find themselves"?

My wife and I are in the long, expensive process of adopting an orphaned child in the Philippines right now. He is eight months old and the son of my wife's cousin, who died very unexpectedly three weeks after giving birth. It will be a 2 to 3 year wait, while we bankroll his entire care, medical, food, toys... all needs... everything. My wife is an accounting manager at a CPA firm and I have my own biz that is currently backlogged for over a year with work. I am already in the planning stages of rolling back my business so I can become "Mr. Mom" when we are blessed with permission to take full custody of this baby.

I can guarantee you that I will home school him, too. Every possible effort to contribute to a full, well rounded and complete education, both academically and socially, will be put forth. Your post makes me only more determined that this is the best path I can take. He will become my absolute, highest priority.

I regret sincerely having to disagree with you so completely. But I surely do. I would consider myself disrespectful to you to sugar coat my views and present them any other way. I trust you can handle that and not incur personal insult. It is not intended that way. I'm very sorry.

Nikki said...

Heidianne, I appreciate the opposing view on the topic, but I have to disagree with the liberal aspect of your comment. Though the 2 parties are at odds about education I think this is a non-partisan issue and no matter what the opinion, it should be treated that way. My son is in 5th grade and is receiving a far better education than I did so to claim a blanket ignorance among american children I think is not accurate. I support vouchers and competition, but see a common trait in homeschooling parents that I think is dismal. Learning stretches far beyond what is read about in books or the media. Its experience and interaction. For example, my son had a teacher in 3rd grade he didn't like. We didn't care for her either. But we told him to gut it up and obey her rules and learn to get along despite its difficulties. This is life. I think he is much more prepared to get along with all different types of people. He will have bosses he doesn't like but will have to work anyway. This perfect little picture that is painted for our children is what is lacking, in the homeschool arena. Kids today IMO are molly-coddled and are being sheltered from life and its ups and downs.
I am sure that you were a great homeschooling parent. I am only going by the ones I know and this is my impression. And FYI most of the homeschoolers I know are organic liberals. Thanks again for voicing the other side...I hope others will take the time to read your comment! :)N

Nikki said...

BA, touche girlfriend...touche! :)N

Nikki said...

DI, No apology necessary! I appreciate all views especially the passionate ones! And of course the readers can get both sides this way... You make some great points and all points in which I stipulate...let me follow that up with a BUT. I know homeschooled children who were done with college before children their age graduated from High School. This is not my issue. I think homeschooled children do have loving parents who want the best for them. Perhaps too much. I have a public educated son who is extremely bright and is receiving a fantastic education. I live in the conservative state of Utah where they still say the pledge, have a Christmas tree and are not taught anything that I would deem too "liberal"...if he were it wouldn't bother me because I have faith in my ability as a parent to have these conversations with my son. Liberlism doesn't scare me. Its nonsensical and my son is smarter than that. We are teaching him to filter information already. These skills will be a vital part for him when he goes to college. I believe he is learning a skill that can NOT be taught by feeding single minded information. Please don't stretch my view to an unplausible conclusion. I am merely trying to point out that homeschooling has its issues and is not the perfect option to the public school system. Perhaps my experience is different being from an extremely conservative area. I would hope that me as a public school parent I would be considered a loving parent as well. I knew this would be a hot topic! And you are courageous and I appreciate your absolutely welcomed response! :)N

Z said...

Nikki...I totally disagree but I only became this way about 5 years ago. I was on the public school side for years, like you are now..

Now, I see how bad the schools are, that kids aren't getting taught even our own history but learning about multiculturalism, hate crimes, how to deal with transgender freinds, etc. etc...

You talk about parents giving their philosophy to kids. Isn't that better than the liberal indoctrination from our SCHOOLS? I wish we could have kids TAUGHT to THINK, not indoctrinated! There's a school nearby me which gave extra credit points for marching against the Iraq war!
My sister's kids' school has stopped doing awards ceremonies for all the kids and only invites award winners so the losers won't feel bad and the baseball is now played 10 minutes per inning so the result is not dependent on excellence. WHAT are we RAISING? A country of WUSSES!? Where do we learn CHARACTER anymore? (at home)

These used to be exceptions but I'm hearing this is the RULE~!

Obviously, you're entitled to your opinion, as we ALL are!, but i'd encourage everyone to really look into textbooks (especially from those companies largely owned by Arabs?) and see what our kids are getting today. Don't forget: it's our liberal universities which are teaching our elementary school teachers how to ......dare I say?...'teach'?

I used to think socialization was bad for homeschooled kids, too, but i hear that, around here, they have sports and other get togethers with other home schooled kids.

Nikki...I wish everything I've heard was dead wrong, trust me....I looked at the public school as where races and cultures could get to know each other, etc...but that has to play a far second to FAIRNESS, teaching about AMERICA and STOPPING THE LEFTIST PROPOGANDA our kids are getting.

good post. I just disagree wholeheartedly. (funny, I typed accidentally "wholeHEATedly"..I hope I don't sound too HEATED!)? xxx Z

Nikki said...

Z, super good points...my experience is sooooo different and I suppose I attribute that to the state I live in and in the previous state we lived in Arizona as well. Utah is just not there. I agree 100% with the indoctrination aspect of what you are saying...Indoctrinate U is a great website but is about indoctrination on the college level, which I absolutely agree is occuring. I am invloved enough in my sons schooling at the moment that I haven't heard anything that was alarming. Schools in Utah still have a pretty traditional curriculum so to me stringently placing more control on a child is unnecessary. But obviously from the comments other states have major issues...that is something I failed to consider. I am sure we will hear from some Utah homeschoolers soon...haha thanks for the view...great points all! :)N

Nikki said...

BTW, If someone would like to post an opposing view on their blog I would gladly link to it! Then all ideas are explored. :)N

Elmers Brother said...

We've homeschooled all three of our children. It's never been about control. It's been about giving them the best education.

We were stationed in Guam when our youngest child was became school aged. The DOD schools were awful as well as the public schools. Everyone knew it.

That's when we decided to homeschool. All my children have excelled. My two oldest children graduated from high school at 16. When my son was in 1st grade he was reading at a 10th grade reading level.

I've spent enough time in a public school as a student and then as a recruiter to know that I didn't particularly care for the public schools. That being said all parents really want is a choice.

Who knows their children better than the parents? The state? I think not.

My children have also been given a choice at the end of every school year....

public school

continue homeschooling

private school

THEY've always chosen homeschool. They see the benefit.

My 14 year old son is in his second year of college courses. He was one of two students to get an 'A' in his college algebra class. He's taking the next higher math course this next semester as well as an Intro to Physics.

While I don't need anyone's approval for homeschooling, (I owe no one an explanation save my children), I do think it's important for people who don't understand to know why people do homeschool.

Clarity is important.

Elmers Brother said...

I am not a homeschool 'nazi' and do not think it's the best option for everyone. It's worked out for us. That's all that matters.

Karen said...

I didn't consider homeschooling because my son is an only child and needs outside friends and teammates. Plus I never felt secure enough to teach him as he got older. And, I'm not a patient person.

The blessing for us is that our son was in private school from nursery school thru middle school. Small Episcopalian schools. For high school he moved to a very large public school - 3200 students, with his graduating class being 555 students. The difference in public school is the obvious - large classes, overworked teachers who can't possibly nurture every student, and the child has to learn to fend for himself.

My son wanted the challenge so we went with that. He was ready to move into a bigger, more worldly arena. He was able to take advantage of AP courses and became friends with kids from all walks of life.

For college he chose a small private university in the Hill Country of Texas. His entire school population is only about 1/3 of the population of his high school! Another big change. But I think it speaks volumes that he realizes the value of small, personal schools and the attention given on an individual basis.

With the candidates, yes, it is a bi-partisan issue. All parents have a stake in the best education possible for the kiddoes. But, Obama doesn't support school choice. I know it is because he's in the pocket of the teachers unions but it's just wrong. Especially from a man who recieved a scholarship to the most exclusive private school in Honolulu as a kid then went on to Ivy League universities. Rather hypocritical that he would deny other kids a chance with school choice.

That's my 2 cents. Education is one of those subjects I could go on and on about!

Nikki said...

Karen excellent points...and info on Obama. I had read his stand on his web and thought it was only fairly comprehensive, but not worthy of total scrutiny. School choice really is the best option for americans...I don't dispute that, and Obama is so not in that camp. Education is something everybody has an opinion on and I think its great to get the juices flowing! I also think it is better handled on a state level...thanks for the pennies! :)N

Elmers Brother said...

what exactly do you mean when you say handled on the state level?

do you mean it would be better if we didn't have a Department of Education at the federal level?

If so then I agree.

Nikki said...

Hey Elmers bro, thanks for commenting and adding to the conversation. I appreciate all points of view, and frankly its a nice change of pace to the ever evolving Obama love fest. I admit that delving into to the elimination of the dept. of education topic is not something I have considered. I do think less federal involvement the better. State government is a closer entity to the people and in my mind makes more sense when it comes to improvement and change. Feel free to expound on the dept. of education and its vanishing...thanks :)N

Nicki said...

Here's my rebuttal.

http://thelibertyzone.com/2008/08/06/its-about-choices.aspx

Elmers Brother said...

Yes I happen to agree that the state would be better at running the public schools.

But I have also been at the sharp end of an overreaching state department of education. It's a good thing I retain counsel for that very thing.

EDGE said...

I have to disagree with ya' Nikki. Good friends of mine are HS their kids and I have to say the results have been fantastic!

At first, like most, I had my doubts on how they would make it work, but they did and boy are those kids sharp!

They don't trust the local school system to teach them, and neither do I.

IMO, I don't blame the teachers, I blame the system. The teachers cannot be handcuffed when dealing with the "little angels." I remember as a kid if I crossed a teacher my name was mud at school, with my mom, and with my dad! Now a kid that screws around would be lucky (or unlucky) to get one of those folks to take control.

I admire my friends for HS! They have made a stand against the idiocy of our government and the bumbling of school's everywhere!

It's not easy, and it's not for everyone, but it can work! I've seen it!

Nikki said...

Edge, HA! you wouldn't be the first disagree-er and I am sure won't be the last! Its ok, I can deal and I think homeschool kids are extremely bright and happy for the most part, I just question some things about it. thanks for piping in! :)N

Incognito said...

Interesting thoughts. I have no kids so really don't have much of an opinion. I can see both sides of the issue.

Just glad I don't have kids to have to make that decision.

Dawn said...

Weird post and I'm not sure it merits a reply. Sure, it's your opinion but what led you to it? What experience or data? Do you usually form opinions without any apparent support?

Saying something is your opinion doesn't excuse it from being supported. Admitting your generalizing doesn't make it a rational or excusable thing to do.

i think the fallacies behind this post would be pretty clear if your beef were instead about school parents who completely abdicate responsibility for their kids by sending them to school. The ridiculousness of that assertion is clear very quickly. The ridiculous of asserting homeschooling parents are control freaks only gets accepted because it's the lesser known quantity.

Feel free to visit my blog and those in my sidebar. I'm homeschooling mom and link to lots of other homeschooling blogs. Most are pretty liberal but there are some great ones by conservative moms. Get to know some homeschoolers.

Nikki said...

Dawn, thanks for proving my point. :)N

DB said...

This comment speaks to jr to snr high, not grade school. I agree with Karen for the most part, except for the school choice thing. I went to schools I wasn't "zoned" for my whole life. I also attended DoD schools which were far better than public schools.

I have some stuff to add. Homeschooling: great, parents choice, easily a better education academic-wise. I will be the first to admit that the US public school system is failing our students on so many fronts (science, math, and language included). But this also is to assume school is intended only to teach a kid only about academic things. What about leadership, sports, music, socializing, etc? Sure, you can get some of these things on a small scale outside of school, but let's be honest. How many homeschooling parents have the ability to get kids into the non-existent or lower quality non-high school sponsored teams? I have sat on too many scholarship boards and have seen way too many homeschooled kids who are smart, but fail to have those extracurriculars that public/private school provides. I have participated in the rejection of work applications and scholarship applications of the students who test well, but have nothing else to offer (again, speaking more about jr to snr high school level as this doesn't matter too much before 7th grade). Plus, school is also about the experience and not just about academics which many parents neglect to understand. Some parents miss this point who do send their kids to public schools. Game road trips, band competitions, having peers from a variety of backgrounds different than their own, etc. Different thoughts, different views. Different cultures. Yes, I suppose non-public school kids can attend some things, but that hardly equates to participating. School teaches more than just academics, but about life and how to get along and interact with other groups of people. If the public school of your choice is failing in a certain area, be a parent, take responsibility, and correct the issue. Who prevents a parent from teaching the kids extra stuff outside of school? Don't rely solely on public education. But public ed does provide quality extracurricular resources that parents don't have access to that make a child competitive for Universities(non-community colleges at least).

Further, despite what some parents think or claim otherwise, and imo of course, every homeschool kid I knew in college had serious social issues once in college. Of course every parent will deny that their kid has social issues when put out there without constant parental oversight. Anyways, these kids are the first to go crazy with their new freedom. I assume this had more to do with the control parents had over their kids (PTA President parents kids were pretty screwed up too). They are often the ones who cannot adapt to the high pace, self-disciplined college atmosphere. Plus they don't have the foundation to know to get involved in college since they have no experience before hand. Sure, they can get the grades and get involved, but short of missing out on their childhood, I guess that’s great. The ones who can adapt seem to be rather self-righteous themselves, harshly arrogant, and think they are better than everyone else (like their parents often are as well-evident by some of the responses, only a critical view on something like homeschooling will get people all worked up sending out emails defending there "right" like it is a personal attack. This is Nikki's opinion people).

Overall, yes, I agree homeschooling is a good option for the parents who want the power to control certain aspects of their child's education. It is a good option for parents who can care less about the experience of a kid’s youth and want them to just be smart. But I do feel it is quite selfish of a parent to not give their child the foundation of societal interaction that schools provide. I am all about their freedom to do so, but I retain my opinion that home schooled kids have some serious issues.

This doesn't even mention the fact that many parent's aren't qualified to teach a dog a new trick let alone manage their kids education. I would rather send my kids to a Christian school (well, one that doesn't teach creationism, of course). This is also an opinion of someone who puts more of an emphasis on the experience end of education rather than solely the academic end. And I believe that parents should take personal responsibility to improve their kid’s education in the areas schools fail.

Khaki Elephant said...

I am the product of a private school but send my kids through the public system. They are only in elementary school, but so far the results have been excellent.

I've never been a fan of homeschooling, primarily because there are so many stories (admittedly anecdotal) of when it is done poorly -- parents with poor math skills "teaching" kids, failure to socialize kids in preparation for the competitive environments they'll encounter at the university and in the business world, an ideological "greenhouse effect" due to a failure to encounter authoritative figures who may not hold the same world view, and just imagine dating somebody who didn't grow up with daily interaction with the opposite sex in a complex social environment.

I suppose if the parents keep the kids active in other social activities it would be effective. I just have my doubts.

DB said...

btw, Heidianne, please share your source for your claim that many states are not allowed to fail a child for self-esteem issues. That seems either way off (typical Republican thought), or a horrible plan (typical Democrat plan). If that is true, I may have to blog about it! Then again, any kid who has to have his hand held to pass the class won't be competing for college spots against other kids anyways, just wasting our time and tax dollars.

Nikki said...

DB, very well said, it appears that we are on the same page as is khaki! Is there some sort of planet alignment I am not aware of???! :)N

khaki, hadn't thought about the opposite sex affect...could go both ways that one with the way girls dress now days. No need to distract the boys with walking porn! HA!....:)N

Righty64 said...

Ah, we disagree on this one, Nikki! I think that while you bring up some good points about some home schoolers, most I think want the best for their children. This made me create a whole post on the subject. And, you are lucky that you are in an appearantly in a great school district. But, many are not. One other thing. I look at home schoolers and those that choose to send their children to private schools are making a direct challenge to the public school status-quo. It is not just home schoolers who have control issues.

GrEaT sAtAn'S gIrLfRiEnD said...

Well, fixing to fire up my 1st semester at college and out of like 65 ppl in English Comp 101 - on 17 ppl DID NOT have to go through remedial eng. Out of the 17 - 12 of us had homeschooling during our formative, tender years.

miradena said...

It is hard to imagine, in this era of perceived political correctness and limitless resources, that anyone could remain so isolated and dogmatic regarding an ill-formed opinion. The observations in this article are as rigid as they are cumulatively wrong, offering little more substance than the equivalent means of stereo-typing or racial profiling. It is this type of rash assumption and judgement about an entire group of people which has not only been overall condemned by enlightened minds, but has likewise, (for the most part), been proven wrong. An overt dismissal of differing beliefs sets a dangerous precedence in any society which all too often strains to remain civilized.

I recognize that most opinions and judgments are formulated based upon personal observations and supporting information, however an opinion can only be as accurate as the people making the observation or the people being observed. And much too often, (as is in this instance), this is a very limited scope of reference.

I could easily dispute the majority of your observations regarding children who are home schooled and/or the parents who ultimately choose to make that most personal decision. However, in this context, it seems less important for me to extol the virtues of an alternate education choice and more important to address the manner in which it was condemned.

Surely you realize that there is no conclusive evidence to support your opinion regarding home schooling. It is an opinion and you are certainly entitled to have it expressed.

However, the judgement with which this article dismisses informed decisions of others is disconcerting. Sometimes it is best to look outside of self imposed parameters to obtain clarity. I often use one Book for my own personal source of direction. It's my foundation toward a better understanding of the inherent dangers of judgement. Of course, this is my personal opinion but I believe that this Book contains profound wisdom and a gentle reminder for us not to judge, lest we be judged. And based upon some recent responses to your article, this appears to be sound advice for you to consider in the future.

Although I would never presume to judge.

DB said...

Opinions indeed, but at least I was spot on when it came to the self-righteous bit...

WomanHonorThyself said...

Sorry Nik..for some reason this time you got stuck in my spam filter on your comment..but I freed you..Youre freee!..lol

Nikki said...

Miradena, I am not trying to prove anything to anyone. But with the attitude of most of these comments on the subject...well, I think that is proof enough. Re-read them and see if they sound arrogant or self-righteous...I could do a post based on the comments alone to prove my point. I appreciate all input. :)

Nikki said...

WHT, WOOHOO! I am free!...I was wondering who the little viral troll was...thanks for busting me out of spam prison! :)N

Nikki said...

GSG, I have no doubt that home schooled kids are brilliant! And I can see why you had no need to take english 101 from reading your blog! :)N

Mustang said...

I think you have presented us with THE paradox for parents: how much control is needed, at what age, and based upon what criteria? The issue is dynamic because no two parents are the same, and neither are their children … there is no ONE answer to the question. That said, I have noted that several commenters have indicated that their children are in elementary school and “so far,” the parents are pleased. Statistically, elementary school is not the problem in our totally-defunct public education system – a statement I can make having taught in it for fourteen years. Here are the facts: Internationally, our elementary level students are performing at the 85th percentile. Not bad, but not record setting, either. I assume the 15-point differential comes from the students who, in spite of rigorous reading, writing, mathematics, and elementary science programs, are already lagging behind their peers. By the time children complete middle school, they are performing at the 45th percentile. Please re-read the last sentence. At the end of high school, our “graduates” are performing at the 48th percentile. So then tell me, where is the problem?

Home schooling is ONE alternative to that travesty we call public education. There are other choices for parents … private and parochial schools come to mind, vouchers to attend academies. But let us not kid ourselves … the concerned parent MAY have control issues, but it is CERTAIN that our public education system is failing our kids. Honestly, I can’t understand how any parent who truly cares about their child’s education will allow them to attend a public school. No matter where one lives, the national statistics are appalling … and just because a local school has a “high rating” doesn’t make it so. Sorry folks … that’s just the way it is.

Nikki said...

Mustang, thanks for the comment and for a perspective from an educator. I agree that homeschooling is only ONE alternative. I am a public school parent and have many teachers in my family and they are all excellent and my son is receiving an excellent education...because he is part of a loving intact family that makes him feel secure and loved...that is what I think is best for children and their education. your points are all well taken! thanks for your input! :)N

Elmers Brother said...

DB,

But I do feel it is quite selfish of a parent to not give their child the foundation of societal interaction that schools provide.

Yes we homeschool parents are a selfish lot, spending all that time with our children, assuring them of a good education, playing sports, music lessons. All at the expense of other taxpayers. (end sarcasm)

There are plenty of places for a child to be socialized and from what I've seen and experienced in a lot of public schools, they don't need that kind of socialization to be successful.

My mother taught at a public elementary up until she was assaulted by a student 3 years ago (the school did nothing to the student)...an 11 year old girl at the next school down was caught giving oral sex to a boy...

I could go on.

Is this the type of socialization you're speaking of?

This doesn't even mention the fact that many parent's aren't qualified to teach a dog a new trick let alone manage their kids education.

If you were as familiar with homeschooling as you claim to be you would know that this has little to do with the academic success of a child. I suggest you take a good read here

Elmers Brother said...

Mustang brought up a good point, concerning test scores.

How do homeschoolers stack up?

Elmers Brother said...

Homeschool families, as a whole, do not raise their children in social isolation.

In addition, several studies have been done to measure homeschoolers' "self-concept," which is the key objective indicator for establishing a child's self-esteem. A child's degree of self-esteem is one of the best measurements of his ability to successfully interact on a social level. One such study was conducted by John Wesley Taylor, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale to evaluate 224 home-schooled children. They study found that 50 percent of the children scored above the 90th percentile, and only 10.3 percent scored below the national average.3


Another researcher compared private school nine-year-olds with homeschool nine-year-olds and found no significant differences in the groups in virtually all psycho-social areas. However, in the area of social adjustment, a significant difference was discovered: "private-school subjects appeared to be more concerned with peers than the home-educated group."4 This is certainly an advantage for home-schooled children who can avoid negative peer influence.

Elmers Brother said...

and if it were about 'control' with homeschooling parents then I would suggest that some public school parents would fall in the opposite corner...

that is they wish to have the public school raise their children.

Elmers Brother said...

This doesn't even mention the fact that many parent's aren't qualified to teach a dog a new trick let alone manage their kids education.

That's funny considering:


One of the most significant studies in this area was performed by Dr. Eric Hanushek of the University of Rochester, who surveyed the results of 113 studies on the impact of teachers’ qualifications on their students’ academic achievement. Eighty-five percent of the studies found no positive correlation between the educational performance of the students and the teacher’s educational background. Although 7 percent of the studies did find a positive correlation, 5 percent found a negative impact.4 Those who push for legislation requiring certain teacher qualifications for homeschoolers have no research to support the necessity of such standards. The results of these 113 studies are certainly an indictment on proponents of certain teacher standards for homeschoolers. Higher teacher qualification does not make better students.

You know us homeschool parents we made this decision in a vacuum. Not knowing whether it would be better for our kids or not.

I'll reiterate, IT'S CHOICE parents want, be it homeschool, public education or private school. It seems as if the American public is woefully uneducated about why some parents believe homeschooling to be a good choice.

ba and the boys said...

there are soo many post here, and maybe this has already been touched on but...
i don't rely on my kid's school to teach him everything. i know some parents do, and these are the parents who send their kid to kindergarten w/o basic shape/number/letter/color education. i have seen it and i have worked with these kids. these kids are behind before they start. and these are the kids who will be dropping out before they graduate because so much was dumped on them that they couldn't 'get' it all. it is NOT the school's fault. it is the parent's.
i am all about public schools. but i do a fair amount here. my oldest knows about the revolutionary, civil and both world wars. he knows about martin luther king (thank you u2 for the springboard of 'sunday bloody sunday').
so what i am saying is that WE need to teach our kids what we know and how to behave. that girl with the potty mouth and the cell phone needs a good slap from her folks(see post from near the top). i bet they thought they were doing her a favor by never putting her in time out. so if we aren't doing our part, how the heck can we expect our kids to learn when the teachers are busy babysitting brats. so when our kids aren't learning, blame your neighbors for not making their kid pay for the window they broke.

Elmers Brother said...

ba,

What I hear you saying is that all parents homeschool to some extent.

Z said...

Seems like this has become a 'them against us' subject here and it shouldn't.
We should all be for PARENTS CHOOSING. And FOR THE KIDS. Because the kids are THIS COUNTRY.

I appreciate the information here with links and statistics.
I appreciate those on both sides with anecdotal information: I never think all anecdotal should be written off 'just because it's anecdotal'...one can usually extrapolate thousands from ONE anecdotal, it's rarely so rare, right? (who would take the time to post on blogs and lie?)

Here's what I wish: that we never had to have this conversation.

The reason we do is something I believe homeschool parents are on the right side of. We shouldn't have to worry about the inferior schooling I hear SO much about (and have witnessed), the sex in schools, the horrid way parents support the child over the teacher when teachers should have respect, etc.
Also..Urban schools are (or were?) different than farming country schools....Seems to me that the smaller communities have better values and better education. I could be wrong, but I think that's probably a no-brainer, in GENERAL.

If home school parents can emulate that better education at home, I'm all for it.
If your nearby community school is excellent and you know WITH CERTAINTY that your kids are being taught, then, why homeschool?

Nobody MUST have their children sit through books for 6 yr olds like "Billy has Two Daddies", yet they are.
Nobody should have to explain transgender because some doctor's called little Joseph, 7, a transgender and he/she needs to go to a special bathroom to be comfortable, yet they are forced to.
We could all go on and on.
Some think that's fine..why should those who DO NOT think that's fine have to have their children subjected to it? WHy are THEY the oddity?

Just my two cents. one plus one...RWO! .ya, that's right. I went to a GOOD SCHOOL! LOL!!

Marcy Muser said...

Nikki,

I'm bothered by several issues you've raised here, and wondering what the experiences have been that have led you to this point.

The first issue is critical, I think, to your being able to hear me on the rest of what I write. You said, "The issue is the controlling aspect of what children are taught and the arrogant nature in which a parent deems their curriculum better or of a higher standard." I'm going to skip the first part, about control, for a minute to address the second part of this statement. You claim that homeschooling parents are arrogant when we deem our curriculum better than that of the local school. But think for a minute - I (and every other homeschooling parent I know) invest an enormous amount of time and energy into homeschooling. Would we do that if we didn't think we could give our kids a better education? Would it even be worth it for us to do it, if we thought our kids could get just as good an education if we sent them to school? Of COURSE I think my kids are getting a better education than they could get in our local school - if I didn't, there would be no reason for me not to send them away all day, and spend my time however I wished.

However, that does not make me arrogant. I don't judge or criticize you for sending your child to school - he's your child, and you have every right, and even the responsibility, to do what is best for your family. If you think school is what's best for your family, that's fine. I happen to think homeschooling is better for my kids - and for many kids.

That also doesn't make me a control freak. I was sort of "thrown into" homeschooling when my older daughter was 3 1/2 and I started looking into preschools. I got the school's scope and sequence, and discovered that she already knew everything they were teaching in kindergarten. I figured at that point that it wouldn't be fair to my daughter nor to the teacher to put my strongly leadership-oriented 4-year-old into a classroom where she would learn nothing new for the next two years and would almost certainly lead the other children into trouble. So I kept doing what I was already doing - teaching her at home (though I didn't realize I was doing that until I started looking into homeschooling). And I've continued doing it because I like the results - she is bright and motivated, she loves to learn, she is able to learn at her own pace, she is a young lady of character and poise, and she is amazingly well-adjusted socially. Not only that, but she has time to pursue her interests, which include music, swim team, and arts and crafts, instead of wasting her time sitting in a school classroom waiting for other kids to figure out things she learned two years ago.

At the same time, like most of the homeschooling parents I know, I don't try to control everything she learns, nor do I think I know enough to teach her everything she needs. It's my responsibility to co-ordinate resources for her: books, CDs, and DVDs, of course, that provide her input from their authors; but also outside classes (art, music, gymnastics, foreign language), swim team, field trips, online courses (some of which include video professors and bulletin boards), and interactions and mentorships with knowledgeable individuals who will be able to teach her things I can't. I'm not an expert at everything, so I try to help put her in contact with resources that will teach her what she needs.

It's also important that my kids have social interactions with other kids; I happen to prefer to be available to them during or shortly after those interactions so I can provide feedback and suggestions to help her interact more effectively. If that makes me a control freak, so be it; but I don't think one adult to every 20 or 30 kids can provide adequate feedback on social interactions. Kids learn appropriate social skills ("the 'being nice' classroom," as you put it) much more effectively from adults who already have good social skills than from other kids. When I hear my child say something mean to another child, I can talk to her about that, whether at that moment or later on. I can point out how her meanness affected the other child, and how it harmed her relationship with that child. But if I'm not there to hear it, that situation may well go unaddressed, and if my child gets her way by that meanness, she may learn to be mean. The same goes for competition, which schools are famous for encouraging; at home, I can discuss these issues with my kids and encourage noncompetitive behavior, but at school, the teacher may not even know it's happening (or may in fact encourage it through grading policies, choice of teams, etc.).

As for isolation, it seems to me school kids are much more isolated from society as a whole than homeschooled kids. My kids spend about 4 hours a day "doing school" - the rest of the time, they are out in the community. They do attend a one-day-a-week homeschooling enrichment program, where they get the experience of "school," without it interfering with their academics - we don't have pep rallies, but we do have school colors, a school mascot, a yearbook, teachers (whom they don't always like or get along with), lines, raising hands, lunch hour, graduation, friends, and the school experience.

You ask what the purpose of homeschooling is. It differs for each family. In the case of my own family, the purpose of homeschooling is that we can give our children the best education possible for them. I'm not trying to micromanage what goes into their minds - I'm trying to individualize their education so that it provides them with what is best for them. I'm not trying to control my kids' every move and every thought. I AM trying to expose them to the world carefully, a little at a time, so they don't get dumped into it all at once at 5 or 6 years old - but by the time they finish high school, they'll have learned everything a typical schoolkid has learned (and hopefully a lot more, and a lot more positively).

I'm sorry you feel a sense of self-righteousness and arrogance and superiority from homeschooled parents you know. I don't feel that toward anyone. I DO feel that ultimately my children's education is MY responsibility (just as your child's education is yours), and I do feel that homeschooling is the best education I can give my kids.

Elmers Brother said...

It's not self righteousness, it's something that works and is backed up by statistics, studies and plain old common sense.

I don't think that parents who choose to homeschool are any better parents nor public school parents worse...but

this conversation was started by your assertion that it is about 'control' when it is about facts.

Homeschoolers score better on standardized tests (isn't a good education what this is about)

have higher self esteems

etc etc.

I'm sorry if that makes homeschoolers seem obnoxious or self righteous, but we've been told by many others uneducated about homeschooling that we don't have a clue. Yet homescoolers consistently outscore their peers.

It also makes those who know nothing of homeschooling to be not just ignorant but guilty of the same self righteousness.

I would suggest that those not familiar with homeschooling get better educated about it before casting judgement.

Studies et al can be found at

http://www.hslda.org/

Elmers Brother said...

Also, home schooling parents act superior to the public school system, and I think a community should support its local schools.

and despite all the problems I do support my local public schools...with about $3000 in taxes every year.

ba and the boys said...

elember's bro-
i think we all SHOULD homeschool our kids...in values and ideas that we want them to have. some basic common sence, manners and how to be quiet and not run around the grocery store.
somewhere, somehow, parents have gotten to the point that they think daycare/preschool teachers should teach all this to their kids and the parents are off the hook. 'oh, and while my kid is in preschool-can you potty train them it is just wayyyyy too hard. and i need to get to my yoga class.' give me a break.
my kids aren't perfect, in fact my 4year old one just yelled 'oh crap!' because he dropped his transformer. but at least i can take credit...and blame for it.
i think that is another post topic...parents who think they shouldn't be blamed for anything.(sorry for majorly digressing on this...)

Elmers Brother said...

I think it's a great point and also goes with what Z said about what is best for the children. We can agree on this.

Nikki said...

Z, great points. I agree we are all on the same side...sometimes. haha :)N

BA, excellent points! I totally agree! :)N

Elmers bro, keep going you are on a roll...and giving the peeps some food for thought. :)N

Marci said...

I have to say I think it is a shame when one parent thinks they know what is best for another parents child. I believe in informed choice. Get all the best information you can from both sides and than make the decision that works best for your family. Don't cast a stone at those who choose differently, different isn't wrong it is simply different. I have a lot of regrets from the stones I cast because I thought that what worked for my family was best for everyones families. I think this would be better said that this is your impression of home schooling and not your opinion, I think to truly hold an opinion on a matter one must have some first hand experience and knowledge on the subject, not just a vague indea in which some confidence is placed.

Marci said...

I meant idea!

Always On Watch said...

Homeschooling comes in all shapes and sizes.

For example, as a contracted teacher for groups of homeschoolers, I offer to the students a classroom experience for certain subjects which, for whatever reason, the parents don't teach themselves: advanced composition, foreign language, and public speaking. Other contracted teachers do the same for the group, including courses in math, art and music theory,

The homeschool group with which I'm associated is a Christian one. So, yes, perhaps to a certain extent, the students are sheltered; after all, the parents are interested in courses which reflect their values to pass along to their children.

Furthermore, many of the students also take courses at the local community colleges, where there isn't any such sheltering. (Actually, I prefer the term "protecting," something a parent needs to do up to a certain age for a child -- after all, the principle of garbage in, garbage out applies to education as well as to computer programs)

it just seems that control over a child's every move and every thought isn't so healthy

Every move and every thought? Hardly! At least, not in my experience with homeschoolers.

What I love about working with homeschoolers and their parents: we have a three-way partnership, i.e., students, teachers, and parents. We consult, we coordinate. Nobody I know is on an ego trip, though I saw plenty of such ego trips in the public system and even in some private schools.

There is no perfect education, of course. Parents need to have options so as to offer the best possible education for THEIR child(ren). Homeschooling may not be for every family or even every child in a particular family. But for music savants, it is the best solution -- just one specific example which shows that the public system would have failed that child.

Sandi said...

Yikes! You opened up the floodgate with this one! I'm on your side on this one. While I understand the theory behind home schooling, unless a family lives in an area with incredibly horrible schools, I think kids miss out on too much with home schooling. Too many social things like school plays, bringing mom and dad to your room to see your picture hanging up, eating lunch with new friends - so many things that aren't academic education, but are social education. When you ask most kids what they remember fondly about their school years, it wasn't that they REALLY learned math. It's the friendships and the activities. Also, as ba said, kids need a break from parents - a time to be themselves out in the world. And parents need a break from the kids.

Good job, Nikki.

DB said...

Not even 2nd Amendment advocates get this riled up over different opinions!

Elmer, sorry for the delayed response. I am currently overseas and am sleeping when the fun is happening in the blog world!I think you missed the part where I qualified my statement on the social issues with an "opinion" disclaimer, which requires no evidence other than first-hand experience. You clearly missed the points I stated that homeschooling excels in as well. As I said (twice), it is the parents choice to raise there kids however they want, but I was just pointing out a few concerns that homeschooling is incapable of consoling. A choice. Did I not make that clear in my original comment?

I understand your arguments, but my point is that this is a total parental control issue which is selfish-good or bad, but still. Why are so many homeschooling parents so hypersensitive about this issue? If the research is so accurate or correct, then the common stereotypes of homeschoolers would not prevail and they have the upperhand on all arguments. I would not have my person first hand experience of homeschoolers with social issues if this is all so obvious as argued. But again, I pointed out how this could be more to do with the control parents constantly exert over their kids as other non-homeschooled kids with similar parents.

Don't get me wrong, I am on the bandwagon that is super-super-critical of public education too. I think that where public education fails (academics), it excels where homeschooling fails (social setting). In my opinion, both are equally as important. This is why I am a huge fan of private charter schools where both weaknesses are focused on to the betterment of a child. Charter schools have the ability to focus on individual children and also provide the leadership opportunities that homeschooling does not offer.

I am sorry if I put some of you people on the defensive, but most of you are arguing for a system without being critical of what it lacks. These are the things I have pointed out. Go ahead, give me some more links to research about how I am wrong, but to me, a huge problem with homeschooling is the parents seem to think that their system is infallible.

These responses are more sensitive than if Nikki outright offended your religions! I find this suspect. Dare I say homeschooling is its onw CULTure? Totally kidding. Kind of.

Chatterness said...

As a school administrator of an inner city school in Texas, I must say that the the percentage of "out of control" students is soooooo small compared to those that come to school to learn. Trust me, the media EXAGGERATES 100% of the incidents they report.

Parents who home school their children do those children more harm than ANY BULLY OR DISRESPECTFUL student could ever do. Just my opinion. Home schooled children who eventually get placed back in public school are usually behind, socially and academically.

Nikki said...

I appreciate all of these great comments! I think this is a great topic and one that can keep our minds on something other than what is a completely Obama dominated conversation.
Having said that, I must reiterate, that this IS my opinion and it is NOT an impression. I don't mince words EVER on my blog. With that clarity, I expect the same from my commentors. Bring the opinions from your guts, because you will always get mine. I don't care for sugar coated messages. Say it straight and own it. I don't mind challenge I welcome it. I may change my mind, I may not. I am a stubborn lot. Obviously there is more than one argument for this topic or I would not have brought it up. Take a side and stick by it! That I respect regardless of what side of an issue any particular person is on! Thanks everyone...:)N

DB said...

Home schooled children who eventually get placed back in public school are usually behind, socially and academically.

Oh dear Chatti, I suspect you haven't read the overwhelming research on the subject that runs contrary to this statement... ;-)

Righty64 said...

Well Nikki, you have a lot of people riled up on this one! But, you are right and wrong. Right that it is an important subject and important to discuss. Wrong if you don't think that there would be a difference in the the two presidential candidates views on education and the government's role in it. For all of Sen. "F--- You" McCain's faults, he is on the side of parents. Sen. Messiah Barack is in the hip pocket of the teacher unions, which means more government control of education and what is taught in schools. And, trust me, a Messiah Barack administration will go after home schoolers with a vengeance.

Elmers Brother said...

No problem DB and I saw that this was your opinion. Which is why I posted the research that has been done and runs contrary to the many of the opinions here.

Too many social things like school plays, bringing mom and dad to your room to see your picture hanging up, eating lunch with new friends - so many things that aren't academic education, but are social education.

While I can certainly appreciate Chatti's opinion. They still get these things. The concept that socialization happens horizontally is an American one.

One of the greatest stumbling blocks to homeschooling is the public perception that homeschooled students are isolated and unsocialized. In fact, the opposite is often true, as homeschoolers have the opportunity to socialize with many different groups and ages, not just with their own peers in a traditional school setting.

Thomas Smedley prepared a master's thesis for Radford University of Virginia on "The Socialization of Homeschool Children." Smedley used the Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales to evaluate the social maturity of twenty home-schooled children and thirteen demographically matched public school children. The communication skills, socialization, and daily living skills were evaluated. These scores were combined into the "Adoptive Behavior Composite" which reflects the general maturity of each subject.

Smedley had this information processed using the statistical program for the social sciences and the results demonstrated that the home-schooled children were better socialized and more mature than the children in the public school. The home-schooled children scored in the 84th percentile while the matched sample of public school children only scored in the 27th percentile.

Smedley further found that:

In the public school system, children are socialized horizontally, and temporarily, into conformity with their immediate peers. Home educators seek to socialize their children vertically, toward responsibility, service, and adulthood.7

In another 1992 study, Dr. Larry Shyers compared behaviors and social development test scores of two groups of seventy children ages eight to ten. One group was being educated at home while the other group attended public and private schools. He found that the home-schooled children did not lag behind children attending public or private schools in social development.

Dr. Shyers further discovered that the home-schooled children had consistently fewer behavioral problems.


I'm open to hearing any other studies that run contrary.

What some call hypersensitivity is really vindication.

You ask why homeschoolers are hypersensitive? I've been chased down the street by a public school administrator when she found out I was homeschooling, claiming I was taking food out of her mouth and publicly decrying homeschooling. I've had them scoff and poo poo homeschooling. Public school administrators and the like have an axe to grind. I've often found them hostile towards homeschoolers. I don't call this hypersensitivity, it's more self defense.

Which is why I find test scores et al., the studies on socialization and my own children's academic excellence all the more interesting. This seems to me all the justification and vindication I need.

I appreciate those who work in the public school system. They're not esteemed like they should be. I respect and honor those parents who choose to send their children to public school. As I have mentioned I don't think homeschoolers are any better parents. What I do find ironic is that those who criticize homeschooling rarely know much about it. This is why I provided links. Whether you consider the facts overwhelming or not they seem to say that homeschooling works and works well.

It's not the best way for everyone.

BUT before those who criticize go on about 'socialization' and 'teacher certification', I must say that I get quite a chuckle out of those who speak from little or no experience about homeschooling.

I can see the limitations DB.

My son (14)and daughter (when she was 15) both are and were taking college classes. Academically they have excelled. When my son was 11 and my daughter 14 we had them take college placement exams and enrolled them in college. They were eligible and we took advantage. I couldn't do that in a public school with an 11 year old.

When he expressed an interest in electronics we learned basic electronics and built a robot. This is but one example of the latitude and freedom we have as a homeschooling family. Not only is my son (and his siblings) exceeding what he could have done in public school, but he's gaining a college education at
14. In addition I'm retired from the US Navy. We could transfer and take vacations when it was convenient.

Is it right for everyone? No. Is it right for us. Yes.

Elmers Brother said...

Not even 2nd Amendment advocates get this riled up over different opinions!

Not riled up...simply educating.

Elmers Brother said...

Too many social things like school plays, bringing mom and dad to your room to see your picture hanging up, eating lunch with new friends - so many things that aren't academic education, but are social education.

this also runs contrary to the studies, test scores that have been done

Independent Evaluations of Homeschooling

The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects.

Sally said...

Holy Crap! 62 comments! Nikki congratulations on the dialogue...

Nikki said...

Thanks sally! :)N

Elmers Brother said...

Chatti said:

"Parents who home school their children do those children more harm than ANY BULLY OR DISRESPECTFUL student could ever do."

Homeshooling does more harm than peer abuse? LOL! This statement is so over the top.

Hey look I realize losing federal dollars for each kid that stays home rather than attend a public school is an issue for you. I don't doubt that your a fine educator or that you work in a fine district. But my guess is you've never been bullied and you know even less about homeschooling.

Maybe we could ask Dylan Klebold and Erik Harris amid others whether they preferred to be bullied?

BTW

How many former homeschool children have you followed the academic progress of?

What socialization problems did they encounter and what did you do to help them?

How did you attribute these issues to homeschooling and not some other reason? e.g. learning disability?

Elmers Brother said...

What's even more interesting to me is that some seem to think that socialization can only happen in a public school?

As for recognizing a child's work or visiting his school room...

well I don't remember my mother coming to my classroom although she assures me it happened...

and I'm sure I was very happy she visited.

plays?? many homeschoolers we know are in drama clubs

ever heard of a homeschooling co-ops? satellite schools?

sports? the local public schools here allow homeschoolers to participate in the sports programs

namaste said...

well shit my pants!! look at the party i missed- geez!!

after a chat with my sis, nik, i just had to take a peek at this post and its comments. i am in total agreement with db, sandi, ba, and you here nik. the debate is not about academics, it's about socialization. but most importantly it's also about a parents right to CHOOSE on their child's behalf.

i have raised two very bright daughters (one who's made the dean's list every semester since she's been at school, now in her 3rd year of college; and the other has been on the honor roll every quarter of high school, now a senior). both have been in several VERY sucky high schools. i have been supplementing their education since pre-k.

all you crazies that wrote a post in this comment section, please be advised: the more you talk, the more you reveal yourselves. scary scary. here's a hint: if someone calls me a chair, my response will not be, how DARE you!! where did you get your info?! i am most CERTAINLY NOT a chair!

i'm not a chair, so why should i be upset.

relax people, this blog does not belong to you.

well done, as usual nik!! i love it!!

:)

~m

Elmers Brother said...

the debate is not about academics, it's about socialization.

and you believe public school is the only place children can get socialized?

is that what you're saying?

Elmers Brother said...

If it was about academics more parents would be homeschooling.

namaste said...

wow, mr. glue, i just tried to click on your blog. and oh, surprise surprise: private.

what a shocker. anonymous people are the most outspoken and spineless in blogland.

btw, everyone, i just caught an error in my comment. i meant to say "very sucky public schools" not very sucky high schools.

Elmers Brother said...

I have a blog http://elmersbro.bloghi.com, you're welcoime to come over. I have a blogger ID simply so I can engage in conversations such as this

as for being anonymous....most bloggers do not use their real name...you may be an exception but I think you'll notice that most bloggers use a nome de guerre of some sort


I'm not trying to be hostile...after all I'm the one who has to retain a lawyer for MY CHOICE to homeschool MY children

You say namaste that it's not about academics but about socialization and then go on to list the 'academic' achievements of your children, you're proud of them and rightly so...yet you exercised some control of their education by supplementing it.

nikki's supposition is it's about control...and so it is with those who exercise the right to control their children's education by sending them to a public school, which is all well and good

you claim it's about socialization AND yet you gave no reason nor facts as to why you think homeschoolers are unsocialized. So I asked a clarifying question, "Do you think that public school is the only place in which a child can be socialized?"

Why you seemed to have found that offensive I don't understand. I'm simply asking you to clarify your position.

Boo! Beware the unsocialized homeschool child.

Yet homeschoolers are the ones who are crazy because we hear comments like

"Parents who home school their children do those children more harm than ANY BULLY OR DISRESPECTFUL student could ever do."

and the research to date favors homeschooling....

if it is about choice then all homeschoolers ask is that you respect our choice to do what's best for our children as we respect the choice of those who choose public school

we didn't make the decision lightly nor decide this in a vacuum. It takes sacrifice and hard work and our children are the better for it.

I'm sure you've also read that I respect and honor those who choose public school and those who choose the profession of teaching and administrating there.

But I'm afraid most people are just undereducated and know very few homeschoolers to make most of the judgements they make.

Guess what:

Thomas Edison
Woodrow Wilson
George Bernard Shaw
C.S. Lewis
Leonardo da Vinci
Mozart
Irving Berlin
the Wright Brothers
Albert Einstein
Booker T. Washington
Patrick Henry
John Marshall
Mark Twain
Daniel Webster
Will Rogers
Ansel Adams
Clara Barton

just to name a few

were all homeschooled

DB said...

ELmer, if you are any indication of what your children will turn out with a homeschooled education, then I will in fact heed your warning to stay away from said children. Your passion is typical of the homeschooling culture. You are kind of over the top, as if what is decided here on Nikki's blog will become US policy. As much as that would be interesting, I highly doubt it. Maybe your homeschooling has given you some insight on how personal blogs impact public policy. As far as I know, homeschooling is legal in ALL 50 states so I don't understand the problem. I don't think anyone here is trying to get rid of the homeschool system. It is still your choice to homeschool...what are you fighting? Against people with opinions? Against stereotypes? Good luck on that battle, friend. You certainly aren't helping to quell the stereotypes of homeschooling parents if that is indeed your goal.

Oh, and great list of homeschooled people...but you neglected to mention that public education really didn't become standarized in the US until the 20th century. So why on earth would you mention many people (like Da Vinci who lived 1452-1519 and NOT even in the USA) who were schooled before the standardizing of public education or not even Americans!? Shall I name some great(er) people who were not homeschooled to validate my argument? And btw, Einstein wasn't homeschooled his entire education and in fact, I can't find any evidence (outside of crazy pro-homeschooling propaganda websites) that he was actually homeschooled for any length of time at all. Please share your evidence of such.

Elmers Brother said...

ELmer, if you are any indication of what your children will turn out with a homeschooled education, then I will in fact heed your warning to stay away from said children.

I'm not sure where I gave a warning to stay away from any child?

I mean if you meant this

Boo! Beware the unsocialized homeschool child.

perhaps you don't understand sarcasm.

You are kind of over the top, as if what is decided here on Nikki's blog will become US policy.

Well I don't mean to seem over the top, BUT what you fail to understand is that homeschooling IS accepted in all 50 states but to varying degrees. This is why organizations like HSLDA.org were created. Homeschooling parents have needed protection and continue to need protection from and overreaching government. I assumed conservatives are concerned about this. If you check out the site you will see that homeschooling parents are harrassed by CPS, pulic school officials and nose neighbors all the time. Which is why I have to retain a lawyer to educate my children the way I wish to.

a recent example

June 23, 2008
Homeschool Family Threatened with Truancy Charges

An HSLDA member family was contacted by the Regional Truant Officer for Bureau, Henry, and Stark counties and told that they must submit to a home visit, curriculum approval, and even a “pre-trial” hearing to avoid being charged with truancy.

The Home School Legal Defense Association has contacted this same officer on behalf of other members in the past. Each time the issue was resolved, but apparently this truant officer will not give up!

HSLDA Senior Counsel Chris Klicka once again wrote a letter to the truant officer, but this time on behalf of the Marks family (named changed to protect privacy). He pointed out that these threatening tactics were not authorized by law. He assured the officer that the Marks family was following the requirements for homeschooling in Illinois and that no home visit, curriculum approval, or even trial would be needed.

The letter resolved the situation and the Marks family has not been contacted by the truant officer since.


There are many others.

but you neglected to mention that public education really didn't become standarized in the US until the 20th century.

Which proves my point even further. Neither did they have 'certified' teachers. I'm also not sure why a person would have to be an American or even from the 21st century to extol the virtues of homeschooling, but hey have it your way.

Please share your evidence of such.

That's funny considering I'm the only one who has provided any links to research and studies in this whole thread.

This is where I found it.

All I'm really trying to do is to simply educate those who do not understand nor have taken the time to understand homeshooling.

I mean to offend no one. I haven't called anyone crazy, used ad hominems or used profanity.

I've provided links to material that is relevant to the thread. Ultimately the 'opinions' of those who don't understand homeschooling affect legislation. You vote, you contact your legislators, if you're not informed then it affects all of us that homeschool.

Z said...

I'm really surprised at this thread. Isn't Elbro entitled to his opinion? He's about the only one with real experience, too! THREE kids doing wonderfully well; I won't go into their accomplishments because he knows them better than I do and he'll share them if he wants to, but they're well socialized, terrific kids, believe me. Elmer's Brother is the wonderful guy who set up my blog for me (while I was saying "I don't want a blog", by the way).

He's BEEN there, his information is real. He has kids who succeeded very well. db,..you sounded so reasonable and willing to learn and listen in your first few comments...to now say to Elbro that his passionate reveals him in a negative way stuns me... His passion comes from empirical evidence and having done years of research into the pros and cons of homeschooling.

I'm surprised at this conversation. He's not called anyone a name, not blanketly put down public schools, yet people who don't know about home schooling are criticizing him? WHAT? Don't let that list he posted get us off topic; he's BEEN there, shouldn't his experience tell us all something?

Elmers Brother said...

DB is a little bit of all of us. Part ass, part greatness, with a pinch of sarcasm and a dash of arrogance. Shaken, of course.

Aren't we all a little over the top DB.

Elmers Brother said...

I can't find any evidence (outside of crazy pro-homeschooling propaganda websites) that he was actually homeschooled for any length of time at all.

This must mean it can't be true then.

Z said...

Elbro, your point that all those illustrati were home schooled is a good one; whether schools existed or not, the fact is they were schooled at home and excelled.

But, I think there's enough proof from today's stats that show that's happening today, too. AND, I know you'll agree that some kids excel in good public schools, too.

Nikki, this has been a terrific discussion and I hope it continues...good on you, girl, for bringing it up!
I guess the thing we ALL want is the best education American kids can get, right?

Elmers Brother said...

"It's nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled youthful curiosity, for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom."

Albert Einstein

hey look a link that isn't from some crazy homeschoolers

Einstein wasn't homeschooled his entire education and in fact, I can't find any evidence (outside of crazy pro-homeschooling propaganda websites) that he was actually homeschooled for any length of time at all.

and the fact that he wasn't homeschooled all his life makes it less relevant you think?

Hmmm.

Elmers Brother said...

I know you'll agree that some kids excel in good public schools, too.

Yes indeedy.

Z said...

Homeschoolers aren't 'crazy', they have a different point of view based on their own particular combination of situations.

You can quote me (Smile!) xxx

Elmers Brother said...

in fact the link is from a teachers college....


oh the irony

Z said...

having said that, there are probably some homeschoolers who are separatists who don't respect this country or who think they need to hide and protect their kids.
THOSE, I think, most people would agree are a little.............


...different?

Having said that, if all public school parents cared so passinately and knowledgably about their kids' public educations as the normal homeschooling parents, we'd not have to HAVE homeschooling!!

Elmers Brother said...

there are probably some homeschoolers who are separatists who don't respect this country or who think they need to hide and protect their kids.

I'm sure there are. I haven't met any in the last 20 years but then again I was busy making sure my kids were being socialized at homeschool co-op events, proms and the like.

Those kind of homeschoolers probably wouldn't be interested in socialization.

Nikki said...

Z, It has been great!...keep it up folks! But I must say that my mind has NOT been changed. I do believe in freedom and choice in schools and my point was not to downplay homeschooled children and not well educated. They are very well educated. MY problem is the same choice parents so vehemently want is not offered to their children...perhaps to some it is. But the home schoolers I know are very rigid in every aspect of their and their childrens lives. Great points have been made on all sides of this issue, but too often it appears that the premise of my post has been completely missed and even overlooked by all of the home schooling parents.
With all of the "evidence" that has been offered for the positives in homeschooling, is the subject of evidence the same when discussing intelligent design? Would religious home schooling parents placing so much emphasis on "proof" and "evidence" be willing to say that the creation is false because of the lack of evidence supporting it? Or when you teach your children evolution do you show them the scientific evidence to support this claim? Why is the argument so proof based? Do you homeschooling parents teach intelligent design or evolution? And what proof do you offer to support your teaching? of either or both theories. I bring this up because of all the "evidence" based arguments... :)N

Elmers Brother said...

that he was actually homeschooled for any length of time at all.

which crazy homeschool propaganda site suggested he was homeschooled any time after the age of 7?

Elmers Brother said...

Really Nikki I'm not interested in changing anyone's mind, it's simply to inform them. If you're informed and you disagree...then fine. At least you are informed and I too thank you for your hospitality.

Elmers Brother said...

Do you homeschooling parents teach intelligent design or evolution? And what proof do you offer to support your teaching? of either or both theories. I bring this up because of all the "evidence" based arguments... :)N

Well Nikki this is the thing...Homeschooling parents are free to choose their own curriculum. They don't need anyone's approval.

The proof you desire would not be found in subjects such as creation vs. evolution (because they are both faith based)

but in

reading, writing and arithmetic

of which I provided the links to test results showing that homeschoolers score an average 30 to 37 percent higher than their public school counterparts

Elmers Brother said...

..."evidence" ...

If you have evidence to the contrary please by all means let's discuss them.

Nikki said...

Elmers, I appreciate all of your comments! Little did I know my rant would cause such a stir! and I barely graduated from High School...haha :)N

Elmers Brother said...

But the home schoolers I know are very rigid in every aspect of their and their childrens lives.

How many homeschooling families do you know?

Can you give me examples of 'every aspect of their lives'?

You don't know any public school parents who are rigid as well?

If so what makes them different than homeschoolers who may be strict?

Do you think the number of homeschoolers that you know is representative of homeschoolers as a whole? If so, why?

Nikki said...

My dispute is not with the intelligence of home schooled children. It in the manner in which parents who home school act. Superior...via test scores. :)N

Elmers Brother said...

Elmers, I appreciate all of your comments!

Thanks again for your hospitality. I don't want to wear out my welcome...

This helps me to work these issues out as well.

Elmers Brother said...

My dispute is not with the intelligence of home schooled children. It in the manner in which parents who home school act. Superior...via test scores

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you elaborate?

Elmers Brother said...

I've tried to explain that homeschool parents are not any better nor worse than any other parents.

The test scores and studies on socialization are provided to suggest that if homeschooling was about 'control' then homeschooled children would not be scoring well on tests nor be so well adjusted. This isn't meant as arrogance it's simply empirical evidence and facts that opinions can be based on.

My own experience (although anectdotal) over 17 years of homeschooling is that the hundreds of children I have met involved in homeschooling are well adjusted, happy, enjoy life and many of them have been instilled with a love of learning. If this is a bad thing then sue me.

Nikki said...

MY post was about controlling and arrogant home schooling parents. I said nothing about home schooling children being inferior to public schooled children. Yet most if not all the comments are about the superior intelligence of home schooled children. This in my opinion proves the point of my post. Your children and home schooled children are superior intellectually you said so yourself when quoting several times about home schooled children having higher scores. :)N

Elmers Brother said...

certainly I can understand your issue with parents who seem to come across as 'superior', I've run across some of them

those who think if you don't homeschool you're a bad parent (I've explained that I am not one of these)

but I would ask:

How many homeschool parents do you know?

Do they all come across this way?

Have they expressed a concern to you for sending your children to a public school?

My dispute is not with the intelligence of home schooled children.

I understand. But you asked a question concerning curriculum and some kind of evidence as to what is taught. This is why I reiterated the statement about the test scores.

Elmers Brother said...

MY post was about controlling and arrogant home schooling parents. I said nothing about home schooling children being inferior to public schooled children. Yet most if not all the comments are about the superior intelligence of home schooled children. This in my opinion proves the point of my post. Your children and home schooled children are superior intellectually you said so yourself when quoting several times about home schooled children having higher scores. :)N

I don't believe I mentioned your children at all.

I gave a link to test scores, providing evidence to the point I made that it was about good education and not about control.

You think it's about control. I'm telling you that homeschool parents don't think in those terms. They relate to the evidence such as test scores etc. that prove that homeschooling works.

If you want me to apologize for the academic excellence that homeschooling provides than that won't happen.

If you think I've tried to sully your childrens intelligence than I am sorry, but I don't think I mentioned your children once here. I simply gave you facts from test scores.

Perhaps you're more offended with the link, I'm not sure.

I provided the links also in answer to DB who suggested that homeschool parents couldn't teach a dog tricks let alone teach their children.

Elmers Brother said...

Your children and home schooled children are superior intellectually you said so yourself when quoting several times about home schooled children having higher scores.

Are test scores offensive to you?

Well this is about education.

The statistic compared homeschoolers with their public school counterparts. If you're offended perhaps you should take it up with those who gave the test.

Elmers Brother said...

know you'll agree that some kids excel in good public schools, too.

Yes indeedy.


you did see what I said here.

as I'm sure there are children who are homeschooled who don't do well.

Nikki said...

Elmers, my point about evidence was that it appears to be so important to most people arguing against my initial post. This is impossible, it was an opinion. I am free to have opinions based on my personal observations and you are free to think they are nonsense. My OPINION is based on my experience. And you were not the only one running to the looky look home schooled kids are smart card. I can't sit here and name every home schooling person that I know, I don't think that is a fair question. Do I know thousands, of course not. Hundreds of course not, the question is a silly one. But the ones I do know are exactly how I said they were. Their kids are sheltered from a lot of lifes realities and this is what I dispute. This may not be the case for your children. But children do need learn independantly from their parents. That I do know. I have a child in the school system and I am in contact with plenty of other parents to see and observe human behavior. I also disagree with flash card moms as I call them. These are the moms that shove academia down the throats of their children from the womb. Children thrive in happy, loving homes. This is the common denominator to success in education. Not hyper-active education focused parents. I disagree with this aspect of parenting with parents of school children, children in sports etc. and home schooling parents. Call it a disagreement and I fail to see why I should have to provide data to support what is my OPINION...I never called my post scientific data. Its an observation and quite frankly many of the comments I think fall right into the correctness of my assessment. Use them as your needed data. :)N

Nikki said...

And I am not offended...fyi. I am only having a discussion with the same directness that is used to address me..:)N

Elmers Brother said...

BY ALL MEANS YOU'RE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION and it's your blog...your virtual front porch...believe me when I say I am not trying to offend

But it's also fair to ask what you base that opinion on. It's not silly to ask that question.

Not hyper-active education focused parents.

and this is the kind of stereotyping that I'm trying to convey to you is not the typical homeschool and the reason why I ask how many homeschoolers do you know and why you think it's representative of all homeschoolers?

Their kids are sheltered from a lot of lifes realities

and all I'm asking you is to explain statements like this

What realities are you talking about?

is it the 'I have two mommies' realiities....please clarify?

I realize an opinion does not require scientific data...but certainly you would be open minded enough to think that 'life's realities' do not have to be gained in a public school?

Hence the data. Hence the argument that it's not about control but about the education.

I fail to see why I should have to provide data to support what is my OPINION...

I would also assume before you make the assertion that you did that you would have done some homework.

Elmers Brother said...

Elmers, my point about evidence was that it appears to be so important to most people arguing against my initial post.

and people who disagree with you know, who ACTUALLY homeschool are telling you it's not about control but about education

that's why you're getting data, people who homeschool know it's not about 'control' or 'acting superior'

it IS about the education...if I thought the public school where I live would give my children a better education I WOULD SEND them there

Nikki said...

No its not about the 2 mommies reality. Even if it were my son and I will have a dialog about it and I will educate him on that issue, in my home when he gets home from school. Here is an example. We moved from AZ to Utah so obviously my son was the new kid. There was a kid calling him a loser and several other choice names that I would have preferred NOT to have had to explain in this stage of life, however it was also a learning experience for him. He was being bullied. How did I handle it...I asked him what he thinks he should do. He said he was going to tell the boys teacher. I said good and that it wasn't tattling he was taking a stand. So he went to the teacher himself and told about the kid. The teacher and the principle handled it and the kid stopped. He felt empowered and self sufficient. Did I like that he was being bullied? NO. Did I want to solve this problem for him? YES. Would I have stepped in if needed? ABSOLUTELY! He was made a safe school ambassador for his courage and leadership. He has participated in tutoring programs for the school and the principle has used him regularly as an ambassador at other schools. What an opportunity for him. Now I know that my parenting has been put to the test and will continue to be. This is a reality. :)N

DB said...

Wow, I go for lunch and hell breaks loose! Granted I took a super-long lunch! And yes, I am pretty "over the top" on some issues as well. Though I mostly just like to debate. Please reference my blog title "Worst Drivers Ever" or "Violence in Video Games." At least we all know where the passion is! ;-)

Elmer, to clarify a few points. I have actually agreed with you on the fact that homeschooling is a choice and should remain a choice and I would vote to protect that choice. No argument there.

I also claimed that "many" (not ALL) parents aren't qualified to teach a child let alone a dog. Not all. My sister homeschooled her seven kids. She didn't even have a highschool degree. It didn't work out so well for her kids but no one could be critical of how she did it because it was her right. Do I think the level of a parents education matters? Not entirely, but I couldn't imagine a highschool drop out successfully teaching a highschooler without proving to someone that they are capable. Who protects the kids from overzealous or underqualified parents?

I believe I even admitted homeschooling grants a better education than pub ed. But I also claimed that pub ed (and private schools) offer children many more leadership and peer oriented opportunities than homeschooling. I went further to claim that parents should take personal responsibility in their childrens lives to improve on the deficiencies of public school and homeschooling. You seem aware of the deficiencies of both, but do all homeschooling parents understand this? Hell, many parents ship their kids off to public school with no concern about what they learn. That too, is a problem.

Further, I also said I am also super, super critical of public education. My point on the passion of the homeschooling culture is that they are so busy making excuses for homeschooling that they cease to be critical of it. No one has disagreed here with your right to homeschool (maybe they did and I didn't see it, but certainly not me). The argument is concerning the deficienicies that people see in homeschooling. Do I think the government should regulate homeschooling? I would say so to a point to make sure it is in the best interests of the child, but no more.

And to reiterate one last point I have made: I am not arguing that public school is so great either, but education is more about the bigger picture than just academics or socializing. It is everything; the experience, the mixing of other cultures and views, leadership opportunities, etc. Homeschooling tries to meet the deficiencies as has been pointed out here, but fails in so many other ways (just as public ed fails in many of its ways too). There is no perfect system unfortunately, but if we cease to be critical of the one we choose than we cease to improve on it.

DB said...

and...all this totally depends on where you are being educated. I would have a hard time letting my kids anywhere near a public school in a place like Kansas. Not even just to drive by.

Nikki said...

besides elmers bro, your kids are smart and well educated, you should be able to trust that any 2 mommy discussion you may need to have they can have an intelligent discussion about it with their parents. They are intelligent enough to reject such nonsense. Let them be. :)N

Elmers Brother said...

This is a reality.

and that reality is taught to homeschoolers who play football ad well as other sports with non homeschooled counterparts...as it did with my son

this is called conflict resolution...happens every day in our house

You think that reality can't happen in a homeschool environment?

We DO have neighbor children and siblings.

I couldn't imagine a high
school drop out successfully teaching a highschooler without proving to someone that they are capable. Who protects the kids from overzealous or underqualified parents?


Define underqualified? overzealous?

underqualified = no college degree? no certification?

I believe this objection has been discussed.

who protects them from said same in a public school? This was my experience.

Perhaps your sister shouldn't have done all seven. I've seen some parents who send some to public school and homeschool their other children. I've also seen others who teach many more at home.

The argument is concerning the deficienicies that people see in homeschooling.

No, as I understood the argument Nikki was saying that homeschooling parents are all about control.

Myself and others such as AoW have been clear that it's not. This is where the disagreement is. It is about the education, a well rounded education.

Again I find it interesting to think that some contend that public school is the only place a child can get socialized.

I know the limitations concerning homeschooling, but the fact of the matter is I can overcome those limitations. If my child is delayed then I can instruct him at his pace, if he's ahead I can accelerate...if he gets beyond what I'm able to teach I get a tutor or in my son's case send him to college at 14.

My daughter took Chemistry through a homeschool co-op. Two parents who were nuclear engineers in the Navy taught the class and had all the lab materials etc.

Do I think the government should regulate homeschooling? I would say so to a point to make sure it is in the best interests of the child, but no more.

Define what you think is reasonable regulation?

There is no perfect system unfortunately, but if we cease to be critical of the one we choose than we cease to improve on it.

Okay we agree.

but do all homeschooling parents understand this?

anecdotal - the ones I know do and I think Always on Watch would agree (we're good friends)

but what if I wanted notification from the school when they taught such a subject?

I might be sent to jail.

Nikki said...

Are you saying you DON'T control what you teach your children in the home? You choose the curriculum right? :)N

Elmers Brother said...

is it the 'I have two mommies' realities

you think talking to your children about this or other issues is controlling?

or

Let them be.

you think one should let the public school teach this without a parents involvement?

Elmers Brother said...

Are you saying you DON'T control what you teach your children in the home? You choose the curriculum right? :)

Actuall we use the standards set by our state to decide how many credits in each subject they need. AND we let the child decide electives such as sports, music etc.

You mean you don't have parents on the school board who help pick out the curriculum?

Most school boards do. Is parent involvement important or not?

Nikki said...

You yourself said you don't want certain things taught to your kids...is that not control? What will happen to my son if he is taught about 2 mommies or evolution or sex with a condom or hear obscenities...will he die? I trust him. I trust me. I trust our relationship. :)N

Nikki said...

Did I say something about school boards?

Elmers Brother said...

Do you know what you're child is learning in public school?

Have you never spoken to a teacher about the curriculum?

Should a parent get involved if a child is bored in class with a subject he knows much better than the rest of the class?

Elmers Brother said...

you said something about curriculum's and ahem those are the ones who help to choose the curriculum.

Elmers Brother said...

You yourself said you don't want certain things taught to your kids...is that not control?

where?

Do you want your kids to learn about oral sex with any involvement from you? Is that control?

Elmers Brother said...

What will happen to my son if he is taught about 2 mommies or evolution or sex with a condom or hear obscenities...will he die? I trust him. I trust me. I trust our relationship. :)N

I don't see where I expressed a concern, I used the two mommies to illustrate what you suggested were realities they couldn't get at home

Elmers Brother said...

So what you're saying is you trust your children to make decisions about sex apart from you...was this true when they were in 5th grade too?

Nikki said...

yes. yes and yes. Parental involvement is a good thing. I am not saying laissez faire to the mommies and daddies...:)N

Nikki said...

I think you know that is NOT what I am saying. :)N

Elmers Brother said...

So if we feel the same why is it control for me and not for you?

Is it because you let the public school broach these subjects rather than bring them up yourself? I doubt that you do this. Yet you consider this control on a homeschooling parent's part.

Funny really.

Elmers Brother said...

I mean I'm sure as a parent you'd rather your children get the right skinny when it comes to sex for example. I'm sure you don't want them learning from this from their peers. I know I'd rather educate my children on this subject than their 5th grade buddies.

Elmers Brother said...

Well see here again this is why it is fair for you to define things such as

'sheltered from a lot of lifes realities'

Nikki said...

hilarious. No condescension there. No superiority. What is it you want me to admit so that you can stop "controlling" the topic? :)N

Nikki said...

so you control who their "buddies" are by teaching them at home?

Elmers Brother said...

no condencension intended I just wish you could define what you mean by 'control' and to be more specific rather than use some ambiguous terms

controlling their buddies?

meaning, choose their friends? NO

You do know kids can make friends outside of a public school?

Elmers Brother said...

which part did you feel was condescending?

Elmers Brother said...

DB
Though I mostly just like to debate. Please reference my blog title "Worst Drivers Ever" or "Violence in Video Games." At least we all know where the passion is! ;-)

I was just being sarcastic myself DB when I pasted the tag from your blog. It was meant in good fun.

Elmers Brother said...

Has your child ever had a friend that you didn't like them hanging out with?

What did you do about it?

DB said...

No offense here as I can generally beat most people in head to head sarcasm matches! I don't take any of this seriously.

Elmers Brother said...

well I'm glad there is no hard feelings DB...I look forward to getting to know you better.

DB said...

Well, here's to sarcasm and good times!! [takes shot of rum under work desk]

Elmers Brother said...

yes to new friends

(kicks the dog)

DB said...

"(kicks the dog)"

LMAO. You win this first match of sarcasm.

Z said...

db...why not KANSAS? Do you believe that's too conservative a place? Is that why you wouldn't put your kid there???

What I think is odd is how we've seen so many reports of really pretty far left indoctrination in our public schools, yet we complain that home schooling parents are mostly conservative. I think this phenomenon is less that they want conservative indoctration and more that they wish the schools were like when we were young; we didn't even discuss political issues as one side or the other. We just learned facts. In LA, several schools gave extra credit for marching against the Iraq war..to 8 yr olds. That's even handed? MOST schools have global warming discussions as if there IS no other side; my brilliant nephew (private Catholic school product) went to a city science fair he participated in and ALL THE KIDS had to sit through a GLOBAL WARMING FEAR MONGERING FILM and the other side (backed by 32000 scientists now, including Lord Monckton who won the Nobel with Gore but has completely changed his mind on that but doesn't get the press coverage!!!!) wasn't even MENTIONED.
I wouldn't want any teacher reading BILLY HAS TWO MOMMIES to my kids, I want to explain things like that to my kids......but the schools are feeling they're better equipped and more fair, I guess?
When parents feel THEY are, why is that unacceptable?

Nikki said...

Elmers, no my son has never had a friend that I have not liked. He is only 10 and I am confident in him, his decisions and my parenting. Teach correct principles and let him govern himself. He has wonderful friends from all walks of life. Some of our religion some not. Some whose parents drink, smoke,cuss and are quite different than us. He hangs around him and is a good influence on a kid who needs good friends. I guess if he had a "follower" type personality I would worry, but he is very much a leader. If your kids are not leaders then by all means pick their friends. That is what I do about it. We expect leadership and influence in a positive sense from my son. We have taught that. And he will be roaming about the world doing good for many and that is something he will have learned from independent strength and trust from me and his dad. Too many parents pat themselves on the back and want all sorts of accolades for the achievements of their kids...Kids are separate entities with great abilities. I treat my son as such and he acts in like manner. Isolating kids from the world keeps good kids from doing good in the world because they are constantly at arms length. I want my son to combat those things that are contrary to what we believe and his being exposed to things we disagree with will give us an opportunity to teach him. Parents who have trouble communicating and connecting with their kids should teach them only what they deem worthy because dialog is difficult. You have the right to raise your kids how ever you want and so do I. I see things differently and quite frankly the firestorm that was brought on by my voicing my opinion speaks to my point. Stop defending your decision, I accept that what you have chosen is what is best for you and your family. I don't know you and you don't know me. But from where I sit I see some pretty micro-managed kids, not by you personally but from others. I disagree with home schooling on many levels. And that we will have to agree to disagree. :)N

namaste said...

elmers, thanks for sharing your blog link. i have a pet peeve about anonymous bloggers loading up on other people's blog.

you make some excellent points. i don't think any of us are seeing things as differently as it appears. but i will say this: most parents who make the "choice" to send their kids to public school have no choice.

and...

whether a child is homeschooled or public schooled, there are note-worthy experiences to be lost on each journey.

ALL loving parents are controlling to some degree. otherwise how would we produce such great kids?

what is so hard in conceding to this?

i think every one of us is passionate on this thread because we are ones to raise loved children who are destined to be leaders.

later gators.

;)

Elmers Brother said...

the firestorm speaks to your point?

What did you expect? Did you expect homeschool parents to agree with you when you can't define your own terms? Frankly I just don't get it.

Stop defending your decision..

You're right I don't need your permission but I do need an understanding and to better inform those who don't homeschool. Especially when they don't have a clue.

As I said you vote, you affect legislation and I assume you keep in contact with your legislators. What you know about homeschooling will make an impact on myself and others.

As far as helping your child with his friends, again it seems as if we mostly agree.

What if your 15 year old daughter came home with a drug addict for a boyfriend?

Elmers Brother said...

most parents who make the "choice" to send their kids to public school have no choice.

I understand namaste.

I have conceded that children can and do excel at public schools and I honor and respect parents who choose public school for whatever reason.

ALL loving parents are controlling to some degree. otherwise how would we produce such great kids?

yes but I don't believe homeschooling parents are any more or less controlling than any other parent. They are simply parents.

Elmers Brother said...

I disagree with home schooling on many levels.

So this isn't just about your perception that homeschooling parents are controlling?

Nikki said...

Elmers, that IS my perception. You are the energizer bunny with regards to this topic, and using some fantastic argument techniques. But I am done. Homes schoolers are controlling. Just try to agrue that point with one and see how they react. Its all the proof I need. :)N

DB said...

why not KANSAS? Do you believe that's too conservative a place? Is that why you wouldn't put your kid there???

While this is waaay off topic, I feel my smartass comment deserves a response. Creationism. Simple as that. I would prefer to home school my kids than send them to a school that had a science curriculum that teaches that crap pseudoscience. Granted Kansas doesn't teach it anymore (as of last year), but who knows with each election.

I can care less what conservative/liberal slant the schools teach as long as it is moderate at most. Global warming doesn't have scientific consensus so that should be taught as such or not at all (another thing that annoys me about school science curriculums). I don't care about much of the other stuff because in the end it is the parents responsibility to help the child understand everything else. I would prefer a secular and non-political curriculum that emphasizes the child's responsibility to educate themselves and come to their own conclusions on social issues. The parents can indoctrinate how they see fit, but leave the schools to simply educate. But again, this is the problem with public schools. You get what you pay for.

Elmers Brother said...

I did argue that point Nikki. I and others have suggested that it isn't about control but about education. When shown the evidence about said education the topic switched to socialization.

I then argued that.

The argument then switched to 'this is my opinion and I'm entitled to it'. I then asked questions to derive the basis for said opinions.

I got very few questions answered and a lot of vague terms and ambiguous definitions.

and for being informed about my choice to homeschool and attempting to get others to clarify their underinformed position I'm branded arrogant and controlling.

Elmers Brother said...

oh DB if only the public schools only educated.

Nicki Fellenzer said...

"But I am done. Homes schoolers are controlling. Just try to agrue that point with one and see how they react. Its all the proof I need." -- That's quite possibly the most pathetic debating technique I've ever seen! You publish a blog entry that denigrates and insults people for exercising their choice in how they want their children educated and for caring enough about their children to bother, someone dares dispute this with facts and gets branded arrogant and controlling for presenting actual facts about a topic he's passionate about instead of arguing emotionalist rhetoric!

That's quite the argument! You're arrogant and controlling because you have presented actual facts in this debate. What an embarrassing display! Worthy of bleeding heart liberals who think their emotion trumps logic and facts.

DB said...

bleeding heart liberals who think their emotion trumps logic and facts.

As if bleeding heart libs are the only ones whose emotions trump logic...the right does it just as much. Give me a break. You call Nikki arrogant, yet this is what you add to the conversation. /sigh

Nicki Fellenzer said...

DB, try actually comprehending what I wrote. I didn't call anyone arrogant. "You're arrogant and controlling because you have presented actual facts in this debate," was presented as and example of her argument against homeschooling, not an accusation against any particular person.

Nikki said...

Nicki, I don't use debating "techniques" I just say my opinion and let others express theirs. If you would noticed and or READ THE comments before I was treated so hostilely by all of you kind, non-controling, big word Alex Trebeck type, home school defenders, I stipulated many arguments to other comments. You obviously don't read my blog. This is my method. To go over the top on my opinions to incite "emotion" in others to generate conversation. It obviously worked here as it has in the past. Someone mass emailed my post to generate dissenters and then you did your own condescending post about my post...as did others. You ALL without exception chided your arguments as superior and "factual" and said I was ill-informed. To be controlling is a personality trait not something you can document with physical evidence. This trait has shown itself again and again in the constant harping on this topic. If someone disagrees its because they are uninformed and pathetic. Why so defensive? Have I hit a nerve? You called me a liberal and an "embarrassing display". I was attacked by all sides. I think the manner in which many of you conducted yourselves in this argument is factual to MY intitial argument...I can cut and paste what you and your cohorts have said to me and others. People can't even voice an opposing view to you or elmers without the quote in italics followed by a rebuttal. Sound overbearing?? oh yes I would define that as controlling. Read the first few arguments and see if I was not letting the opposite view be exposed...THAT IS MY METHOD!...so kindly go back to your own blog and discuss nothing and allow NO dissension what so ever to your superior opinions based on intellectual facts. How nice for you. Continue to have a conseravtive love fest without any form of real deabate! Your attack dog style of debate is not productive. Please look for a future post where most of these comments will be displayed as pathetic arguments and actual evidence as to the constant badgering of this topic. What could have been and should have been a "discussion" turned into comment diarrhea. I will continue this topic in the future and will have fun with all of the comments. thank you once again for proving my point over and over. Its hard being right all the time, but someones gotta do it! :)N

Nicki Fellenzer said...

Wow, it must be nice to be able to arbitrarily declare victory without actually providing any backup.

No one accused you of not allowing dissenting views, and since you claim I don't allow any on my blog, that makes you either a liar or someone who hasn't read my blog, and merely talks out of her ass.

And by the way, leave the psychoanalysis to the experts. I'm not defensive. I don't homeschool my children, and I have never been homeschooled myself. I do, however, believe in allowing people to have choices in how they educate their children. THAT's the dog I have in this fight. Freedom.

And actually, there are plenty of ways to document a controlling personality objectively. You have not done so, other than to essentially say, "This is how I feel about it, so therefore it's true, and by debating the point and backing your arguments up with facts, you're nothing but a self-aggrandizing, overbearing git." So providing evidence to support one's contention is a sign of condescension? Wow!

Don't worry, the last thing I want to do is attaaaaaaaack you! Waaaaah! My comment was more about the way EB was treated when he/she (not even sure) put up some pretty impressive arguments in favor of homeschooling.

I'll leave you to your little delusional circle jerk.

Nikki said...

Can females circle jerk?

Elmers Brother said...

People can't even voice an opposing view to you or elmers without the quote in italics followed by a rebuttal. Sound overbearing??

What do expect? I thought discussion was about presentation and rebuttal. It's the way arguments are made. Simply put it's not overbearing to discuss things.

I didn't make a post on my blog in rebuttal to yours, I made my case here.

You ALL without exception chided your arguments as superior and "factual" and said I was ill-informed.

It seemed logical considering you didn't seem to be familiar with any of the material presented nor cared to divulge the basis of your argument. e.g. How many people do you know that homeschool? Then when confronted with people who actually do homeschool you wanted to dismiss the arguments without said basis.

How do you think discussions are held?

Should we all just state opinions without basis and sing kumbayah afterwards?

The arrogance lies with those who choose to form a bias and opinions with little or no basis in fact. It's what some call hubris.

Elmers Brother said...

hubris - overbearing presumption

Nikki said...

sigh

Elmers Brother said...

Nikki said,

DI, No apology necessary! I appreciate all views especially the passionate ones!

Elmers Brother said...

Nikki said

BTW, If someone would like to post an opposing view on their blog I would gladly link to it!

Elmers Brother said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dan said...

Nikki

I had to laugh as I read your latest post, "bloody horse". Then I saw the amount of comments, WOW! I did a post on home schooling a while back, check it out. I thought the comments were pretty funny.

http://thebumblinggenius.blogspot.com/2007/05/wright-family-education-administration.html

Jungle Mom said...

Due to the fact that my children are all trilingual, I would find it quite difficult to find a school system, or teacher, qualified to adequately educate them.
I am barely able to keep up with them myself.

Beamish said...

There's no finer argument against leaving education in the hands of a government than this here comment thread.

Anonymous said...

Nikki, all I can say is wow. Lots of energy. Pretty entertaining. Elmers Bro is pretty passionate shall we say. I can tell he or she really loves his/her kids if he/she devotes that much energy in building a great relationship w them. Because in the log run, say, when our kids are forty, will we care how great their test scores were or will we care what kind of person they are. That was a fun ride. I never thought I would actually comment on a blog but the discussion was so intense. My hat's off to all contributers especially EB and of course you. Go have a diet coke, a scoop of pb, and get your butt down to az so we can go out to lunch......S

Brooke said...

Wow. This is a heavily commented thread!

Even if a parent nowadays finds the school's teaching to be acceptable, discipline in public schools are atrocious.

When I got out ten years ago, it was not uncommon to hear the girls in the hallways called 'bitches and hos', grabbed in a sexual fashion, ect. The guys would fight, be loud... A lot of the black students would harass the other white and asian kids with NO repercussions. Every profanity known to man flew freely.

THAT was just between classes, and I did NOT go to an inner-city school!

Aside from avoiding the propagandist agenda of the NEA, I imagine quite a few homeschooling parents with to avoid exposing their kids to this!

Nikki said...

miss anonymous...I mean Sheila, I am missing AZ like you can't believe! I will be down soon I promise you that we have some lunching to do...and some pow-wowing! love ya and thanks for the comment! :)N

nanc said...

is this where i can find the homeschoolers who suck in bed?

Beamish said...

Nanc,

LOL! No, this is where you discover that public schools are inadequate to prepare people to educate their own children.

nanc said...

nevermind.

Anonymous said...

bwahahaha

Ducky's here said...

Public schools seem fine to me. My niece is going for her masters degree and her final year of high school was advanced placement math (including manifolds and some diff), Russian history, English, Physics and Latin.
This is a working class town with no huge education budget.

Most of the home schooling advocates here think a manifold is something you find on a car and I doubt they could handle the other topics much better.

Face it, you want to home school because you can stay away from reality based science and your kids won't risk having to get along with homos.

Pinky said...

I have homeschooled, University Model Schooled, and public schooled my oldest. I find it terribly offensive when anyone tells my what my motives are for any of my choices. AoW said that homeschool families come in all sizes and shapes. Excellent point!

Yes, some are long denim dress wearing, long hair having, very conservative (in every aspect) people. Some of them maintain total control over every aspect of their children. However, some of us use some form of unschooling. Have you looked into this? It can be incorporated into homeschooling. And curriculum? Well, that's not being an arrogant control freak. That's called knowing your child's learning style and picking what best suits your child. It's called common sense.
I feel that a good homeschooler teaches his / her children to think for themselves. The goal is not to have mini-me's, but to have independent thinkers, capable of facing the many lies and traps in our world today.
I agree with ElBro. It is a superior education, when done correctly. I couldn't do it well. I wish I could. For now, we public school, and we supplement with art, outings, and unschooling. We do the best we can. Oh, and a good dose of 'Here's what they LIED to you about today, honey'. ;-)

no anger, Nikki. Just sharing my opinion.

Pinky said...

Awww, Ducky.
I like homos. They're so fun to be around. My kids love them, too.
That's so mean of you.

;-)

Anonymous said...

duhkkky knows as much about raising children as he does about car engines

Nikki said...

Pinky I welcome all comments from all points of view. I just don't like someone hijacking by blog and commenting 65+ times to push their thoughts. Its a little unnerving to have a bully try to push you around and then campaign as a victim on their own blog. You make excellent points. :)N

Nikki said...

Ducky, anonymous commentors are gutless worms. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. thanks for the comment! :)N

Elmers Brother said...

Ducky,

you read the links I assume?

Then you would know that the certification/education level of a teacher has little to do with the academic success of child?

I thought so.

Elmers Brother said...

Do you know ducky's real name nikki?

Wouldn't that mean he's anonymous as well?

oy

Jungle Mom said...

So ...you don't like for people to take over your blog? Does that imply you like to 'control' things?

Not every parent can home school, not every family should, but it is a valid choice and it is proven to be effective when done properly. There is actually a higher standard required by most states in regards to testing and oversight then there is for the public school teacher and student.
Just a thought, maybe we choose to home school so that our children will not grow up to be so narrow minded and arrogant as a few people here seem to be!
A few here seem to have a need for better social skills themselves.

DB said...

Nikki, I can insult jesus and still not get 175 comments. Homeschooling is a culture of its own.

Nikki said...

DB, no doubt about it! Its a strange thing these nazi hs'ers...I didn't even say that their kids were dumb, I said they were smart and excelled. Maybe you should test it out...lol:)N

Jungle Mom said...

Nazi's????
Did you learn your 'name calling' skills from the public schools? You seem to use that when ever you have no valid argument.

DB said...

I can't believe this is still going. I agree with so many of the homeschooling arguments, but once again my argument about the persecution complex is still in effect. I still maintain homeschooling is a culture of its own always marching to the beat of their own persecution complex.

Elmers Brother said...

I still maintain homeschooling is a culture of its own always marching to the beat of their own persecution complex.

A better description might be counter culture.

I'm just curious DB...do you have any children?

If so, do you have to retain a lawyer to protect yourself from choosing to educate them the way you want?

Elmers Brother said...

You seem to use that when ever you have no valid argument.

She hasn't had one yet JM, why should she start now.

nanc said...

"However, this is a topic of which I am not an authority on, but have an opinion anyway. Call it an educated one, call it an uninformed one, but an opinion nonetheless."

what you have is an authoritarian opinion.

"I do understand a parent embracing the homeschooling philosophy for several reasons. Control of curriculum and topics, friends, diet, convenience and school shootings to name only a few."

the curriculum is generally the same for homeschooled children, but for one difference - creationism may be taught much the same as humanism.

as for friends, we DO teach our children how to recognize a good friend and how to recognize a rotten one.

school shootings? bwaaaaahahaha!

"However, in my mind the decision to home school is made by control freak parents. I hate to generalize, OK no I don't, I like it and let me do some more of it."

could the converse be said about parents who choose to public school their children? i.e. "parents who send their children to public school don't give a sh*t about their children and want NO control over their childrens' lives."

"Let me just preface it by saying that I know kids who were home schooled and are among the best and the brightest kids in school, so this is not the issue I have with it."

a preface usually comes at the beginning of a topic.

"The issue is the controlling aspect of what children are taught and the arrogant nature in which a parent deems their curriculum better or of a higher standard."

as i stated before, the curriculum is generally approved of by whatever state a person is homeschooling in. so in reality, you mean the state is the arrogant entity.

"While public schools are struggling, for the most part I think education today is better than it has ever been."

by whose standards? yours? how old are you?

many of us (40 and older) remember a time when children were taught rather than be indoctrinated into a way of thinking.

"Yet, we continue to complain about American competitiveness on a global scale."

the state has taken away many parental rights and turned our children into teat-sucking little communists with a sense of entitlement. homeschoolers are TRYING to rear accountable children.

"Breeding little compete-mongering children is not a good formula for society."

you cannot have it both ways - either we be competitive or not - which is it?

"It creates a mean kid atmosphere and quite frankly kids should spend more time in the "being nice" classroom and less time in the academic classroom."

tell that to a child whose bullied on a regular basis - mean kids come from mean parents. speaking strictly from my own experience, my children have had to turn the other cheek so often in public schools that we've had to install swivels on their necks!

"But that is just me. At any rate, home schooled children are taught a strict philosophical view that is controlled by the parent."

who would YOU have control your children? you are either the parent or you relinquish all duty to them.

"Also, home schooling parents act superior to the public school system, and I think a community should support its local schools."

i've never experienced this with parents who homeschool, having been one myself in the past. some homeschool programs are done in conjunction with public schools so they get credit for that child in their state and federally funded programs. you are then accountable to a public school teacher by the month or quarter.

"I don't think that the social aspect is too much of a problem, but I do think I would feel isolated as a kid from the camaraderie of school spirit and school pride. Its a huge part of childhood that home school kids miss out on. Nothing better than a pep rally before a sporting event."

do you EVER sit amidst the kids (cheerleaders, flag team, pep club) with pride at a h.s. football game? do it sometime - you will be shocked at their behavior, language and total lack of sportsmanship.

"So what is the purpose of home schooling? Is it so parents can micromanage what goes into the impressionable minds of their kids?"

think very hard about the above statement. very hard. whom would you have making an impression on your child's mind?

"If so that philosophy stinks. What is it they think about the outside world? Are they better? Is the world so evil that the education that comes from a secular institution is sub-par?"

no, it's not sub-par, but it is by CHOICE, much like abortion. does the word CHOICE mean ANYTHING to you? or does it only apply to what YOU choose?

frankly, our children are much better children for society's sake for having been homeschooled some in the past. of course, i don't speak for all who homeschool or send theirs to public school.

"This is a self-righteous attitude of educational superiority that in my opinion is detrimental to our society. Kicking out little programed kids is not healthy for the promotion of an expanded thought processes."

PROGRAMMED KIDS? BWAAAAAAAAAH! that's rich - especially since public school is run by the state!

"It would be easy for me to have my son stay home so I could control, who his friends are, what he learns, what he eats and feel warm inside because he is protected from a dangerous world."

but? you left out the "but". it takes very special people to homeschool their children and very special children to be taught in this manner. we've instilled a sense of uniqueness in ours that is unmatched - we like being able to find them in a crowd - they stand out.

"I take issue with this aspect of homeschooling. However this is America. Do what you want. At this point I may be wrong, but it just seems that control over a child's every move and every thought isn't so healthy."

something or someone is going to control their minds from day one. that is a point you fail to make.

calling homeschoolers "nazis" is the epitome of ignorance and you need to be taken to task for this brazen statement.

Jungle Mom said...

If you require your child to get up each day and go to school...you are controlling him. That's our job as parents.

I believe the first commenter gave the true reason why many will not home school...they're selfish and want their free time.

I was trying to be nice but being labeled a 'Nazi' is beyond the norms of civility. If my child labeled someone in such a way, I would correct them! It is way over the top girl!

nanc said...

nikki - please pardon the appearance that i've taken the moral highground - it's hard not to when you dish it up so nicely!

::chirp::

Papa Frank said...

nikki -- does it not make as much sense to say that many parents use not only public school but programs that are there before and after school in order to pass of their responsibilities as it does to say that home schoolers are controlling. Many kids are dropped off an hour before school so the school could babysit them and then feed them breakfast and then send them to class. After school there are programs to watch them for 2 or 3 hours and feed them snacks and help them with their homework. Does that make ALL public school users lazy and irresponsible? Or is it perhaps much more fair to say that there are lazy people and irresponsible people and good people and caring and loving people and brilliant people in BOTH camps.

And incidentally, nazis were rapists and murderers and torturers and exterminators. I don't think those labels apply to those people I've seen commenting here. Maybe an apology should be in order for using this overly harsh comparison.

Z said...

Ducky, can you EVER post without making a remark about gays?
And, really, if I had kids and knew the neighborhood school was reading "Billy has two mommies", I'd have my kids out of there, too.

Is that saying we HATE GAYS, want our kids SEPARATED FROM GAYS? NO. it's saying that WE want to teach them, help them understand. US, not the GOVERNMENT. That's PERSONAL.

This whole thread seems to me to show that some people want and understand liberty and wouldn't come CLOSE to insulting others for their choices and some don't. It really surprised me...and saddened me, too. Aren't we past judging people for their choices? Especially when they've obviously not made a choice without tons of information? It's like some of you are going out of your way not to understand or accept. WHY?

Nikki said...

There is a lot not right in this thread of comments...and the responsibility does not rest solely on the shoulders of the home schooling opposition. Each person has contributed to the nonsensical nature this thread has taken. I for one am tired of being called names and discussed on other blogs. I have ripped on democrats and liberals with more fervor and have received far less attention and back biting than this...my blog states at the title "Humorous, sarcastic and in your face opinion about politics and american culture"
emphasis on "sarcastic"
It also says in my "about this blog":This is not an informative blog. I am simply voicing my opinion and then inviting those who agree or disagree to voice theirs as well. I allow anonymous comments, but would hope that comments are made with courage and courtesy. I strive to maintain a fun atmosphere where all who read will join in the conversation no matter what side of the political aisle they are on. "According to Nikki" is politics and life the way I see it. A sarcastic commentary meant to make you think and laugh. Please do not take this blog so seriously that you cannot see the humor in American political life. Thank you for participating and keep it real!"

Those who regularly read get the program. From the get go of this post it was marketed as total nonsense and troops were rallied to confront, attack and "inform". I do not take kindly to the manner in which ideas were eventually lambasted on MY blog. I am fair. Anyone who reads my blog can attest to my giving a headliner to differing points of view regularly...the constant attacking by elmers bro has seriously scared me. 70+ comments from the same person over and over and over and over and over again. Then others coming over to say their piece from HIS blog. Being called a whiny bitch and "like talking to someone in jr. high" is sanctimonious and NOT right. This is soooooo not worth the publicity it is getting. I find this line of disagreement disturbing and yes it sucks.
At the beginning of this post was welcoming of all ideas. But when it turned personal my hospitality stopped. It also stopped when the thread was dominated and hijacked by someone whose blog THIS IS NOT! I don't know anyone who would allow such a thing. Quite frankly I had friends calling me concerned about the mental health of someone with such persistence. So please continue your hate fest on elmers blog!

Papa Frank said...

So then you were serious about the whole nazi thing?

Nikki said...

sigh. In the literal sense no of course not...in the sense of intimidation, hell yes. Elmers is trying to intimidate me. Not only has he continued to comment, but he has taken it upon himself to answer every persons opposition to this subject on MY blog! like its his blog and his responsibility to correct the errors of our ways, arrogant? hell yes. An expert he may be, but a dominating absolutely IS. He has continued his hate fest on his blog and called his arguments educated and evidential, correct, insightful only to name a few, how is this not arrogant? He called talking to me like "talking to someone in jr. high" arrogant? condescending? He and many others have proven my post time and time again. When I say that homeschoolers are controlling and you are not, then why the total freak out? If it doesn't apply to you and your family then why the constant battle to prove that you are not in fact controlling? Your conscience should be clear. If you are not arrogant then why do I constantly hear homeschooling data and stats of how much better home schooled kids are? There was no need to press the issue of a home schooled child's brilliance. I have stipulated that point again and again. Without total and complete adoption of Elmers ideals, which are "factual" I will continue to get badgered and "educated"...yea no control aspect there. How many mass emails and links on other blogs are there to this one insignificant post? Its borderline deranged. Something I did not expect. Now please stop trying to continue the contention. I find the acceptance of the dominating nature of elmers actions quite unacceptable. Read through the comments and you will see that the only time I became somewhat belligerant was when I felt the thread had been taken over by some one whose blog it was not, and still you all maintain a higher moral ground while ripping me a new one on several other blogs. Now please give it a rest. The topic has worn out its welcome. Instead of changing my mind, I have become more convinced that my opinion is correct and have the "evidence" to prove it. 180+ comments is over the top ridiculous. If only you all had the same passion for kindness.

Papa Frank said...

You do realize that I'm just one person and not even a homeschooler don't you? I was just curious as to why you were likening these other people to nazis as I find nazis extremely detestable and criminal. Looks like I stumbled in at the wrong time for intelligent and calm discussion. Sorry for my intrusion then.

Papa Frank said...

Actually I work for a public school district as does my wife. Our twin girls will be beginning kindergarten this year. Good luck to your children on their school year! How many kids do you have in school?

Nikki said...

you haven't been on elmers blog contributing to the rip fest? As you can see I have been bombarded. Please don't act like you were coming here to reason kindly with me. Elmers has rallied the troops and here you all come. Let's not insult my "intelligence" and act like you were waving the white flag of truce to contribute to the "whiny bitch".

Nikki said...

I have one. and he is receiving a fabulous education. 5th grader an only child.

Nikki said...

in the public school system no less.

Papa Frank said...

I am not a "troop" of Elmer nor did I contrbute to any hatefest. I was on Elmer's blog today and discussed evolution and creationism with him. I did not come waving any white flag as I was not aware that I was in a war. As I have already mentioned my daughters attend public school as well. My real fascination was with the reason that you would insist on calling home schoolers nazis. It just comes across to me as unfair and I thought that pointing that out would normally just receive a response of something like "you're right that is a little over the line and I'm sorry I was just worked up a little." My apologies.

Jungle Mom said...

hey, I was not there either. I even support public school as a choice for some.

I am sorry your feel attacked. Imagen how you would feel if people called you a "Nazi" or "persecuted culture"? That's a bit worse than 'jr higher" don't you think? It is also very personal!

It's great you enjoy your humor and sarcasm, as you say, but you may want to develope a tougher skin and be prepared to get as good as you give.

DB said...

discussed evolution and creationism

Why am I not surprised?

And Yes, Elmer, I should have used counter-culture. I think ti fits the bill a little better. But it is a culture of its own nonetheless.

Always On Watch said...

Nikki,
Elmers is trying to intimidate me. Not only has he continued to comment, but he has taken it upon himself to answer every persons opposition to this subject on MY blog!

Well, this is a public forum, and the comments section is open. If you don't want dissent, make it a members-only site.

nanc said...

you cannot have it both ways, missy. if you offend a goodly portion of people you deem fit to have on your sidebar, their friends are going to step in for them - what i'd worry more about is them asking you to remove them post haste from your sidebar.

one cannot be the criminal AND the victim.

btw - who's elmer? he that homeschooler guy who sucks in bed?

nanc said...

p.s. - perhaps you'd like to make an apology AND retraction? you know, before it's too late?

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